S03E12 Script Discussion

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I'm not happy about Trolls replacing Balrogs either, but there's nothing we can do about it.


Frame: So are we going to show Estel interacting with Halbarad, or Halbarad's reaction? I think showing those things is important, but as it is now Ep 13 frame will be taken up with Estel already back in Rivendell talking to Gilraen and Elrond.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I'm not happy about Trolls replacing Balrogs either, but there's nothing we can do about it.


Frame: So are we going to show Estel interacting with Halbarad, or Halbarad's reaction? I think showing those things is important, but as it is now Ep 13 frame will be taken up with Estel already back in Rivendell talking to Gilraen and Elrond.
According to Marie's description and the discussion we had the other night, Estel will be explaining what happened to Halbarad, so we would see that interaction, as well as Halbarad's reaction in that scene.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
In Rivendell? Why would Halbarad be in Rivendell while they're still fighting against the wargs?

I'm saying Estel should talk to Halbarad before he returns to Rivendell. Which means it needs to happen this episode, because in Ep 13 he will already be back in Rivendell.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I'm confused.

This is what Marie suggested for the Tag of this episode:

"Estel tells the story of what happened to Halbarad, explaining how Hamilcar saved his life. He is full of regret. He tells Elladan and Elrohir that he is ready to go home."

Why would that happen in Rivendell?
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
It would not. I got confused because it looked like she said "Estel tells the story of what happened to Hamilcar," without mentioning Halbard at all. I guess I misread it.

So the second scene is supposed to happen in the Dunedain camp?
 
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Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I was editing my post while you posted. I got Hamilcar and Halbarad mixed up and misread her post. I think? I may still be confused.

So let me see if I got it straight now: The teaser takes place out in the wilderness. But the tag happens back in the Dunedain camp, and Halbarad is there. Do I have it right now?

The uncut video from Saturday is on YouTube, right? So I can listen to the part after I left, hopefully this week.
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I'm trying to get this outline done while it is still fresh in my mind so I don't have to go back and watch the video. What I have so far:


The Silmarillion Film Project


Season 3 Episode 12: Despair and Hope

Protagonist(s): Feanorians - Maedhros

Doriath - Luthien (Secondary: Thingol)

Helcaraxe - Galadriel (Secondary: Fingolfin)

Introductions: Trolls

Final appearance: None

Characters: Aegnor, Amras, Angrod, Aredhel, Beleg, Caranthir, Celeborn, Celegorm, Círdan, Curufin, Daeron, Fingolfin, Fingon, Finrod, Galadriel, Luthien, Mablung, Maedhros, Maglor, Melian, Thingol, Turgon Frame:Elladan, Elrohir, Estel, Halbarad


Summary: The Feanorians agree to a parley with the Mouth of the Lord of All Arda. It does not go well. Spiders continue their assault on Menegroth, and are repelled by the Girdle of Melian, which saves Thingol’s surrounded army in the process. Fingolfin’s host nearly succumbs to cold and starvation.

Theme: Despair and Hope.

Conflict: Maedhros attempts to trick the trickster, Luthien forgets she has an Ainu on tap, and Galadriel’s respect for Fingolfin as a king grows.

Primary Storyline: The Parley



Frame teaser - Estel struggles to carry Hamilcar's body back to the Dunedain camp through the snow. He is met by Elladan and Elrohir, who were out looking for him. No words are spoken, but Estel’s shame and sorrow are quite clear. (Characters: Estel, Elladan, Elrohir)



Act I

Scene 1. Eithel Sirion, Feanorian camp - The Sons of Fëanor discuss what to do about the offered parley. We see Thuringwethil pacing on the fringe of the camp, making Feanorian soldiers who are watching her extremely uncomfortable. Within the central tent, Maedhros is willing to meet with the emissary. Curufin is reasonably certain that Morgoth’s people have no intention of giving up a Silmaril. It is probably a trap. Maedhros agrees that it is probably a trap, which is why he is the only one of them going. The brothers are look on this with general disfavor, and Maglor especially is concerned for Maedhros’ welfare. Maedhros convinces them that the Oath leaves them little choice if there is even a chance there might be a Silmaril. He instructs Maglor to gather 500 volunteers (number largely irrelevant, but should be in the hundreds). (Characters - Amras, Caranthir, Celegorm, Curufin, Maglor, Maedhros, Thuringwethil)



Scene 2. Menegroth, Main Gate - The spiders initiate their assault on the gates of Menegroth. Luthien is outside the gate with a few soldiers, between the two lamps that light the entrance. They can see the spiders that had webbed up the surrounding forest beginning to gather across the river. Shelob stares across the river at them from the darkness. Suddenly, the creatures surge toward them. The Elves rush inside, pulling the gate shut just before the spiders reach them. The lamps outside are snuffed out quickly by the spiders. The spiders swarm over the gate while elves standing at arrow slits above it shoot ineffectually into the mass. Luthien reaches the platform where they stand and is looking out at the chaos when a spider reaches the aperture. Luthien pulls away just in time for a spider’s leg to come through. One of the soldiers attacks the leg with an axe and does minimal damage. (Characters: Luthien, Shelob)
 

cellardur

Active Member
I was thinking of a problem we are going to face later on; Melian deserting her people of Doriath. I know it's for the next episode, but I think we need to show the Girdle only works by combining Melian's and Thingol's power together. We can make even somehow convey to the audience that it is 99% of Melian's power doing the work, but we need to make it a combined effort. So when Thingol dies we have an explanation for why the girdle fails.

Therefore he withdrew all his people that his summons could reach within the fastness of Neldoreth and Region, and Melian put forth her power and fenced all that dominion round about with an unseen wail of shadow and bewilderment: the Girdle of Melian, that none thereafter could pass against her will or the will of King Thingol, unless one should come with a power greater than that of Melian the Maia. And this inner land, which was long named Eglador, was after called Doriath, the guarded kingdom, Land of the Girdle. Within it there was yet a watchful peace; but without there was peril and great fear, and the servants of Morgoth roamed at will, save in the walled havens of the Falas.

Maybe it can just be as simple as Melian holding Thingol's hand whilst the Girdle extends from her. This way when Thingol is murdered, the dwarves can break the girdle. I don't feel strongly about this and we could have Melian just leave broken and distraught after Thingol's death, obviously bringing down the Girdle with it. I don't mind either way, but if we go for the first option we need to plan for it now.

The only other thing I would add, is we need the Feanorians agreeing to break the terms of the parley.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I was thinking of a problem we are going to face later on; Melian deserting her people of Doriath. I know it's for the next episode, but I think we need to show the Girdle only works by combining Melian's and Thingol's power together. We can make even somehow convey to the audience that it is 99% of Melian's power doing the work, but we need to make it a combined effort. So when Thingol dies we have an explanation for why the girdle fails.

Therefore he withdrew all his people that his summons could reach within the fastness of Neldoreth and Region, and Melian put forth her power and fenced all that dominion round about with an unseen wail of shadow and bewilderment: the Girdle of Melian, that none thereafter could pass against her will or the will of King Thingol, unless one should come with a power greater than that of Melian the Maia. And this inner land, which was long named Eglador, was after called Doriath, the guarded kingdom, Land of the Girdle. Within it there was yet a watchful peace; but without there was peril and great fear, and the servants of Morgoth roamed at will, save in the walled havens of the Falas.

Maybe it can just be as simple as Melian holding Thingol's hand whilst the Girdle extends from her. This way when Thingol is murdered, the dwarves can break the girdle. I don't feel strongly about this and we could have Melian just leave broken and distraught after Thingol's death, obviously bringing down the Girdle with it. I don't mind either way, but if we go for the first option we need to plan for it now.

The only other thing I would add, is we need the Feanorians agreeing to break the terms of the parley.
Depends on how much power Thingol has.

Isn’t that the story, that Melian is so distraught by Thingol’s death that she returns to Valinor?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Maybe it can just be as simple as Melian holding Thingol's hand whilst the Girdle extends from her. This way when Thingol is murdered, the dwarves can break the girdle. I don't feel strongly about this and we could have Melian just leave broken and distraught after Thingol's death, obviously bringing down the Girdle with it. I don't mind either way, but if we go for the first option we need to plan for it now.
While I do think that Thingol and Melian are connected fairly heavily, and there is some of Thingol's will involved in the girdle, I tend to think that the reason for its failure has to do with Melian's emotional state following Thingol's death rather than Thingol's death itself.

The only other thing I would add, is we need the Feanorians agreeing to break the terms of the parley.
I tend to agree. We were being a bit coy with this because Maedhros' literal words should mean something if the Oath itself is important. The result we were aiming for is that Maedhros keeps the letter of the agreement, but breaks the spirit of it. The dialogue can make clear that they never intended to actually negotiate with Morgoth.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
While I do think that Thingol and Melian are connected fairly heavily, and there is some of Thingol's will involved in the girdle, I tend to think that the reason for its failure has to do with Melian's emotional state following Thingol's death rather than Thingol's death itself.



I tend to agree. We were being a bit coy with this because Maedhros' literal words should mean something if the Oath itself is important. The result we were aiming for is that Maedhros keeps the letter of the agreement, but breaks the spirit of it. The dialogue can make clear that they never intended to actually negotiate with Morgoth.
And the more powerful you are, the more you affect. Melian's grief outright causes the Girdle to break down.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Right, the discussion of the brothers should sound an awful lot like the lead-up to the Kinslaying. We're going to take (back) what is ours, whatever it takes. The intention is clearly to claim any and all silmarils that are present at the parley by force, not to negotiate in an honest manner.


As for Thingol, he's not going to be at Menegroth when Melian initiates the Girdle. So, it's quite clearly going to be a solo endeavor. We could show him formally inviting the guest-elves to enter Doriath after it's up, to show that the Girdle recognizes him as king of the realm and responds to his will...but it's not made by him, and I don't think we should do anything to imply that it is.

The Girdle fails when the power of Melian fades. And Melian's power fades in reaction to Thingol's death. Thingol was not the 'on switch' to the Girdle, which then failed when he died.
 

cellardur

Active Member
Yes I agree with the replies and nothing more to add on the Melian/Girdle topic.
I tend to agree. We were being a bit coy with this because Maedhros' literal words should mean something if the Oath itself is important. The result we were aiming for is that Maedhros keeps the letter of the agreement, but breaks the spirit of it. The dialogue can make clear that they never intended to actually negotiate with Morgoth.
That's great, because unfortunately I can't remember who quoted Faramir, but it really does apply in this situation.

'I would not snare even an Orc with a falsehood?'
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Faramir is, admittedly, one of the noblest characters Tolkien ever wrote. He's Gandalf's pupil, through and through. I don't think that the Princes of the Noldor (and certainly not the Feanoreans) need always live up to that standard. But keeping their word is one badge of honor the Sons of Feanor are going to cling to, so it would be weird to see them outright break it here. There can be plenty of ill intent, of course.
 

cellardur

Active Member
Faramir is, admittedly, one of the noblest characters Tolkien ever wrote. He's Gandalf's pupil, through and through. I don't think that the Princes of the Noldor (and certainly not the Feanoreans) need always live up to that standard. But keeping their word is one badge of honor the Sons of Feanor are going to cling to, so it would be weird to see them outright break it here. There can be plenty of ill intent, of course.
No that's exactly my point and I have stressed it before. Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, Faramir, Glorfindel and Galadriel are some of the noblest characters in the entire legendarium. They are rare even amount the great and noble. Out of the current Noldor only Finnarfin and Glorfindel are as noble, with Finrod close. We should not be afraid of showing how all the First Age heroes are flawed. Galadriel alongside Finrod is the most noble of the royalty and look how she struggles to reject the ring after many years of sacrifice and growth. I see very few if any of the Noldor exiles rejecting the ring.

As for the bolded, I wouldn't say that. They try and keep the oath, but they are traitorous to friends and kin. They have no problem lying to Luthien, attempting to murder Luthien when they have been spared, and betraying the trust of Finrod.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
As for the bolded, I wouldn't say that. They try and keep the oath, but they are traitorous to friends and kin. They have no problem lying to Luthien, attempting to murder Luthien when they have been spared, and betraying the trust of Finrod.
Celegorm and Curufin had no problem with that. But we are primarily characterizing Maedhros here, who is a quite different person. Not that I think he's being remotely honest in this episode.


I am willing to accept the explanation that Christopher Tolkien gave for Melian leaving Doriath: that she was not only overwhelmed by grief, but that with her husband's death, the reason and purpose of her physical incarnation as the Queen of Doriath was lost, and therefore her power over Doriath faded. It's a more magical than psychological explanation. I think that combined with the weight of grief would be the best explanation.
 
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