S03E13 Script Discussion - Finale Time!

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Extremely rough outline...


Frame Teaser:

Estel and the E-Bros return home.


Act I

Lammoth Camp, resting up from Helcaraxe.

Fingolfin


Confrontation with Sauron. Celgorm decides to go off on his own.


Maedhros questioned before the throne. Post-offscreen torture.


Thingol returning home. Someone notices Beleg isn’t with him. Cut to Beleg. Cat slinks off.


Act 2

Werewolves attack Fingolfin’s Army


Cats stalking Beleg. They believe they are following him to a passage through the Girdle.


Stapling


Cirdan & Celeborn see the Feanorian camp under the moonlight.


Act 3

Heart to heart w/Mom. Debriefing.


Celegorm & Dudez travelling


Politicking


Approach to Angband


Act 4

Chase to the Girdle, Beleg escapes.


Final confrontation at Angband.


Final gloating, dismayed Fingolfin’s host -> Sunrise montage


Sunrise Montage


Fingolfin’s Defiance



Tag

Elrond reprimands E-bros. Sauron’s fear of Estel is mentioned. Broken sword in background. Fingolfin v Morgoth painting in background. Ringil held aloft.


Gilraen asks what it was like being among men.


Pre-Credits Stinger

Hildorien
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I have fleshed it out a bit further here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/19E_-y2LFq8n2grRtCyiE7fnwKJgvfkpQI_n-4jAzN5g/edit?usp=sharing

I did forget what was supposed to happen in the 'politicking' scene - was that our final visit to the Camp of the Fëanoreans at Mithrim?

Also, I'm fully aware that my 'summary' of what happened in the final climactic scene with Fingolfin at Angband may not be a very accurate summary of what people actually wanted to happen there. I just figured we had to start somewhere....
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I haven't watched the part of the discussion after I left, but I did take detailed notes during the part I participated in, and from the podcast. I might as well post it all here and ask if anything here is objectionable, before I incorporate my notes into the Google Doc?

Black color is for things we discussed together, or which were suggested by the Hosts
Purple color is for things I suggest now
Please pardon the extra spaces caused by the forum


Season 3 Episode 13
Protagonists:
  • Fingolfin’s group: Fingolfin


Frame teaser. Elladan, Elrohir, and Estel return to Rivendell. Elrond and Gilraen receive them.


Act I
Scene 1.
Lammoth - The people of Fingolfin resting and recuperating. They have tents or huts of some kind to stay warm out of the wind and dry off. Meat is being cooked over fires. Conversation about what to do next:
  • (Fingolfin and his 3 children, Finrod and his 3 siblings, Orodreth)
  • Galadriel is more deferent towards Fingolfin than before, does not suggest a course of action until Fingolfin says what he wants to do
  • Someone asks, will we go after Morgoth or Fëanor first?
  • Fingon wants to go after Morgoth, Angrod or Galadriel want to go confront Fëanor
  • Turgon (wet blanket) : I hate them both. But we are not prepared for war yet. We have barely begun to recover from our ordeal. We have no home. We know nothing of the lay of this land nor where our adversaries are.
  • Fingolfin takes a force of 1000-3000 Noldor (who are well enough to march and to defend themselves) to scout the land. Fingon, Aredhel, Angrod, and Aegnor go with him. Turgon, Finrod, Galadriel, and Orodreth stay behind to order the camp and defenses. Galadriel now trusts Fingolfin to do what needs doing.
Scene 2a. Eryd Wethrin - The Fëanorians are in the ravine where the false parley occurred. They find many dead Elves and Orcs, but not Maedhros, and are increasingly worried. Mairon/Sauron arrives, announcing himself as the Mouth of the King of Arda. He declares that he has taken captive the faithless traitor who violated the fair terms of the parley. He shows a lock of hair as a token. The King of Arda has demands: go back to the West or far away south, and give up all war against the King of Arda, and you can see your brother again. Refuse, and we will torture him to death. The Sons of Fëanor are outraged, and question if Maedhros is even alive. Sauron says they can take some them time to decide, but not too long. He leaves.

Scene 2b. The ravine in Eryd Wethrin - The Fëanorians start arguing, and clearly are not held together as a group without Maedhros or Fëanor around. They refuse to bargain with Morgoth – they know he won’t honor any deal. But the discussion disintegrates into disorderly argument.
  • Amros and Maglor say that they’re trapped by the Oath anyway: even if it would gain them anything, they cannot leave the war.
  • Maglor is less certain than the others that Maedhros is dead.
  • Amros: “We are all going to die, and it’s all your faults.”
  • Curufin: “We can still defeat Morgoth, we only need a better strategy. We can forge better weapons and armor to stand against the fire-demons.
  • Celegorm tells Huan that while the rest argue, they should go scout a backdoor into Morgoth’s fortress. He announces he’s leaving, without asking Maglor. The other four brothers are too disarrayed to decide whether to stop him.
Scene 3. Morgoth’s throne room - Gothmog, Sauron, Draugluin, Thuringwethil, and 2 other Balrogs are there. Maedhros is dragged before the throne in chains, he clearly has been beaten or whipped or something. He is enraged by the sight of the Silmarils. Sauron gloats because his scheme succeeded. Morgoth mocks Maedhros’ inability to regain the Silmarils. He taunts him: “This is your father’s fault you’re here, I wanted him but he sent you to die in his place.” Maedhros’ angry reaction reveals that Fëanor is dead. Morgoth and Gothmog rejoice and gloat over Fëanor’s death. Morgoth asks when the Valar are coming, and it hadn’t even occurred to Maedhros that the Valar would do anything. He fails or doesn’t even try to hide this. Morgoth laughs: “Oh, they left you all to die, didn’t they?” Morgoth is cautiously optimistic that the Valar won’t attack him after all.

Scene 4. Doriath - Thingol comes to Menegroth and Melian tells him what has happened. Speak the name Doriath. Someone notices Beleg isn’t with him. Cut to Beleg. Cat slinks off.


Act II
Scene 5.
Ard-Galen or north Hithlum - Fingolfin’s group are packing up a temporary camp and travelling, east of the Eryd Lómin. They banter. A remnant werewolf group attacks [the vanguard, or a smaller scouting party]. The Noldor are not in their top form and some are killed, but they hold their own. The rest of the Noldor arrive and the Gaurhoth realize they’re outnumbered by the same kind of Elves that just trounced their whole army. They flee, and most of the Elves follow.

Scene 6. Near Doriath - Demon-cats stalking Beleg. They believe they are following him to a passage through the Girdle.

Scene 7. Thangorodrim - Morgoth has Maedhros stapled to a cliff. First some Orcs make to toss him over the edge but hold onto his hand so he hits the cliff wall. Then Morgoth staples his wrist to the cliff with an iron band. Morgoth mocks Maedhros, telling him his brothers have abandoned him and don’t care about his fate. They have left him to die, everybody has abandoned him. He will die here alone.

Scene 8. Mithrim - Círdan and Celeborn scouts discover the Fëanorians at Lake Mithrim in the moonlight. They do not make contact.


Act III
Scene 9.
Rivendell - Gilraen and Estel have a heart to heart. Debriefing.

Scene 10. Ard-Galen - Celegorm, Huan, and a few scouts on horseback are going stealthily near the western Eryd Engrin.

Scene 11. Angband - Brief establishing shot of Maedhros on the cliff
  • Boldog’s few surviving Orcs return to Angband and are not received with praise.
  • Gothmog blames Boldog’s failure on Sauron.
  • Sauron retorts that Boldog failed only because Sauron was forced to come north to fix Gothmog’s mess. If Gothmog had been competent, Sauron could have stayed in the south, and his southern campaign would have succeeded.
  • Gothmog says all of Sauron’s southern attempts against the Elves have failed.
  • Sauron: “But have they?”
Scene 12. Ard-galen - Fingolfin’s group are chasing the werewolves north over the plain in the moonlight. As they travel they find remains of the Orcs who were being chased and slaughtered by the Fëanorians in the Second Battle, and broken Noldorin weapons. As soon as they are on Ard-galen, they can see Thangorodrim and the Eryd Engrin in the distance. They slow down, and somebody comments that it is a mockery of the Pelóri and Taniquetil, exactly where you would expect Morgoth to live. They keep going forward for a closer look.
[time-skip]
Fingolfin’s group reach the battlefield where Fëanor was wounded, closer to Thangorodrim. The heaps of dead Orcs and Gaurhoth suggest the Fëanorians won the battle. Somebody [Angrod?] asks “What if Fëanor has already defeated the Enemy? Then what?” They are certain one of their adversaries is in those mountains, but the survivors may be weakened now. Maybe Fingolfin can force a confrontation, or at least learn more. They continue forward.


Act IV
Scene 14.
Border of Forest of Neldoreth - Demon-cats are trying to get through the Girdle, and cannot get through the mazes and shadows. They’re going in circles, lost, unable to find the way.

Scene 15. Gates of Angband - There are two arms of the mountain that stick out forward [like at Erebor]. As Fingolfin’s group approaches between the arms and towards the gate, they see Troll guards around the gate, and armed garrisons on the two arms of the mountain.
  • Now a couple thousand assorted monsters (as many as the Elves present) are gathering around the gate to oppose them, coming out of their posts or garrisons on the mountains, and out of trenches. Trolls, Gaurhoth, Orcs, Vampires, and Boldog, [maybe a few ancient beasts of horn and ivory, or some demon-cats] The Noldor realize they are surrounded on three sides and might be unable to escape. Fingolfin decides the best defense is an offense, and prepares for an aggressive move.
  • Morgoth steps out on the ledge above Maedhros, to watch in glee as his creatures kill the approaching Elves. The people of Fingolfin react very briefly in dismay and fear, seeing the Silmarils illuminating Morgoth. But Maedhros is out of sight [too small and filthy to make out at such a distance, hidden by intervening lower peak, and/or in shadow under the overhang]. Morgoth tells Maedhros to watch his thralls destroy yet more of the Noldor. He does not bother to identify which Noldor they are.
Scene 16. Tanquetil - Manwë and Varda stand upon Oiolosse, looking directly at Morgoth. Varda is shining. Both are silhouetted directly in front of the Sun rising out of Valinor behind them, blending with the light of Varda. Swelling music
  • reaction montage: shots from:
  • Morgoth & monsters fleeing in terror and pain, trolls turning to stone
  • Maedhros (surprise)
  • Fingolfin & host (shock and excitement, trumpets)
  • Celegorm and the scouts see the host of Fingolfin and are shocked
  • Círdan & Celeborn
  • Thingol, Melian, all the named Doriath characters, various Iathrim
  • Fëanorians at Mithrim
  • Finarfin and Yavanna in Valinor
  • Dwarves
  • Ents and Entwives
  • The landscapes of Middle-earth start changing dramatically.
Fingolfin’s people:
  • the Sun rises and their enemies all flee, they get excited, blow trumpets
  • Fingolfin marches alone to the gate itself, bangs on it, plants his banner, declares war against Morgoth
  • show Fingolfin walking away from the gates in sunlight, and his people turning back from Angband
  • he doesn't need to have a sword yet. he can have a spear and a bow.
Scene 17. The Hiding of Valinor
  • extended, wordless visual scene, after the Sunrise
  • rising Pelori, setting the Shadowy Seas and Isles
  • Ulmo doesn’t help? (That was the Hosts' suggestion, but I think that as it says in the book, those who would defend authority from rebellion must not rebel themselves. IMO Ulmo would obey Manwe and do his part after being overruled.)

Frame Tag. Rivendell - Elrond and twins talk (in the background, there's a tapestry of Fingolfin challenging Morgoth to single combat, with his heraldry visible.)

Gilraen and Estel talk, again.



Final Tag. Hildórien - Men awakening:
  • no music in this scene
  • naked
  • lots of people asleep, literally waking up when the Sun rises
  • many different skin colors and facial features, no one color or “racial” group predominating
  • not grouped by appearance
  • males: many are bearded
  • maybe large proto-Hobbits? (I think no Drûghu)
  • in a really nice, lush, flowery river valley in Mesopotamia (Tolkien said Hildorien was [in] Mesopotamia)
  • region that “neither the Eldar nor the Avari have known” (so, no Elf contact like Lost Tales)
  • they DON’T have tools or clothes or villages yet
  • NO snakes (but other Mesopotamian wildlife should be OK – birds, trees)


missing scene of Doriath and Spiders:

  • Giant spiders retreat north to Nan Dungortheb.


Notes:
  • NO Noldor-Sindar contact in this season
  • no messenger is sent to Doriath
  • in Season 4 the messenger could be Annael? send Galathil with him?
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
We will be including a rather impressive montage for the rising of the Sun...here are some examples to look at for inspiration.

The lighting of the beacons in RotK:
The music makes this scene, but it is just exquisitely done.

The coming of spring to Narnia (BBC low budget TV show from the 80s)
There are obvious weaknesses in this one. Thematically, it is similar to what we are trying to do, though. There is a 'coming of spring to Narnia' scene in the more recent film as well, but I didn't find a clip on youtube.

The decisions at the end of an episode of Supernatural (1:15 min):
This one probably doesn't make a lot of sense if you don't know the characters/story it's telling, but it's actually really well done - the music is perfectly menacing, and the different characters' storylines are all tied together neatly. Crowley's conflict with his mother (who has just betrayed him) is tied to the Winchesters' conflict with *their* mother, who has similarly betrayed them by collaborating with their enemies (well, not Crowley and Rowena, whom they regularly collaborate with...it gets complicated), and Lucifer, who is secretly being kept captive by Crowley for payback, and everyone knows that situation is going to end badly...to Lucifer's baby-momma, who is being watched after by the demon Dagon (unbeknownst to Crowley). Yeah, that probably didn't help at all...but it's still a good end-of-a-TV-episode-montage-overlaid-with-music sequence. The point is what ties all of the storylines together is motherhood, secrets, and betrayal. And considering all Lucifer does is sit in a chair chained up and say one word....they managed to make his role seem quite menacing, with promise of future troubles heavily implied.

Supernatural does have the equivalent of a 'rising of the Sun' montage. At one point on the show, the Sun was dying, and then they fixed it (don't ask). So, the moment when it gets fixed, the Sun 'comes back on' after having been dim for awhile (1:45-2:48 in this video).
It's not bad or anything, and it is part of a season finale, but I'm not thinking there is much there worth copying. I imagine this show will have a seriously different style. Among other things, we'll have real darkness, so a much more dramatic introduction of light.
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Yes, I think that the way that we show what a Big Deal the rising of the sun is is to take our time with the montage. Some of the things will be shorter, and others longer. What is important is that we do not end the sequence and then start up a similar new one.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Another issue for this episode: What are the Fëanoreans (not Maedhros) doing in this episode?

What does Celegorm discover on his scouting mission? Does he see the Host of Fingolfin? Does he see Morgoth staple Maedhros to the cliff? Does he see Morgoth's army?

We probably need him to do *something*, but we have to be careful how we end their storyline. Setting up 'Fëanorean camp in disarray; internal tensions; Maglor's weak leadership' might feel like we're not going anywhere with them at all.


Also, we will need to remove the 'Beleg and the giant cats' sequences. The Hosts want the story of the Doriath plotline to be 'the establishment of the peace of Doriath' and thus focus on more internal scenes. I suggest a scene between Mablung and Beleg, who are reunited for the first time since Episode 7 or so.

We will just have to re-establish the Girdle (and how it works to repel evil creatures) in a later season.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Another issue for this episode: What are the Fëanoreans (not Maedhros) doing in this episode?

What does Celegorm discover on his scouting mission? Does he see the Host of Fingolfin? Does he see Morgoth staple Maedhros to the cliff? Does he see Morgoth's army?

We probably need him to do *something*, but we have to be careful how we end their storyline. Setting up 'Fëanorean camp in disarray; internal tensions; Maglor's weak leadership' might feel like we're not going anywhere with them at all.


Also, we will need to remove the 'Beleg and the giant cats' sequences. The Hosts want the story of the Doriath plotline to be 'the establishment of the peace of Doriath' and thus focus on more internal scenes. I suggest a scene between Mablung and Beleg, who are reunited for the first time since Episode 7 or so.

We will just have to re-establish the Girdle (and how it works to repel evil creatures) in a later season.
I say he sees the Host of Fingolfin. They’ve already seen Morgoth’s army, and it’s hard to see someone stapled to a cliff.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Thank you for the update, Marie.

What does Celegorm discover on his scouting mission? Does he see the Host of Fingolfin? Does he see Morgoth staple Maedhros to the cliff? Does he see Morgoth's army?
I agree with Ange1 about this. He can see and react to the host of Fingolfin, but there aren't many of Morgoth's creatures to see. And letting him see Maedhros would just be implausible when Fingolfin's people can't see him from closer up, and would raise uncomfortable questions about why his brothers don't do anything if they know precisely where he is.

We probably need him to do *something*, but we have to be careful how we end their storyline. Setting up 'Fëanorean camp in disarray; internal tensions; Maglor's weak leadership' might feel like we're not going anywhere with them at all.
Hm. Is that necessarily a bad thing, though? I'm not saying it's necessary to deliberately cultivate that image, or to ignore them for most of the episode. But keeping them in total disarray would be in keeping with the overall message of the book at this point (which seems to be "The Feanorians fail at everything, because they're bad people and Cursed, and they accomplish nothing while the folk of Fingolfin are suitably impressive.") So it might be OK if they don't seem to be going anywhere soon.


Also, we will need to remove the 'Beleg and the giant cats' sequences. The Hosts want the story of the Doriath plotline to be 'the establishment of the peace of Doriath' and thus focus on more internal scenes. I suggest a scene between Mablung and Beleg, who are reunited for the first time since Episode 7 or so.

We will just have to re-establish the Girdle (and how it works to repel evil creatures) in a later season.
Does this apply also to the demon-cat scenes earlier in this season, the entire plotline of them trying to discover the entrance to Menegroth, eating people alive, and so forth? Or is it only in this episode that it needs to be removed?

Your suggestion for Mablung and Beleg is a good one. Roughly how many scenes of peaceful stuff in Doriath should be added to the season -- just this episode or several of them? There might even be space to introduce Galadhon or Galathil as a speaking character. Or maybe not.


What is the timeline/procedure for doing the final script edits -- are they supposed to be done by a certain day for a final review?
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
No, final review is complete at this point.

We are allowed to have the cats; we are just removing the Beleg being stalked by cats plotline from this episode.
 
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