S04E01 Script Discussion

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I can live with Curufin choosing Caranthir to come along, if Caranthir screws up somehow or loses his temper, and Curufin says (then or later) that he’ll never bring him to that kind of meeting again.
I mean, Celegorm is an ok choice as well. He is likely to back Curufin's play, so, I'm fine with that.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I can live with Curufin choosing Caranthir to come along, if Caranthir screws up somehow or loses his temper, and Curufin says (then or later) that he’ll never bring him to that kind of meeting again.
Perhaps he doesn't do anything... yet. For this meeting between the two Noldorin camps, he might stand there looking surly, but later on when they entreat with Thingol, that's when he screws up, what with his line about Thingol being a "Dark Elf".
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
But hey maybe I’m making too much of this. It could be a chance to show Caranthir being less of a two dimensional cartoon brute.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
To me, what is challenging about this episode is demonstrating the tension between the Noldor camps. To use this handy chart*, how likely is it that our kin will attack us today? This is not a war situation and there is no kinslaying. No skirmishes of any sort break out. It's more like a de-militarized zone. But I'm not sure how official the no-man's-land designations are? Like....are they just...staying away from each other? They are establishing a perimeter and fortifying the camps, and we can show that. But if this is like the boundary between North and South Korea...how do you *show* that?




We start out with the Host of Fingolfin mad as hornets. They just marched across the Ice because Fëanor betrayed them and stole the ships (again). They confronted Morgoth at Angband and then turned away from the gates. They marched to Mithrim. They set up a camp. At this point, the tension between the Host of Fingolfin and the Host of Fëanor is fairly high. If we have to assign a color to the question of 'how likely is it that violence will break out?' when the two full groups see each other for the first time, we're at a SEVERE.

And then.... They find out that Fëanor's dead and Maglor's in charge. That...changes things, but it doesn't make them less angry. So, they're still mad, but not actively plotting a war. I guess the threat level drops, a little bit? Maybe to HIGH.

And then...the camps just stare at each other across the lake for a long time. We know they aren't plotting war against Angband; they're too worried about the immediate threat staring at them. So, they more or less do nothing? It's awkward to show what they are doing. Because, la la la, going about our business....is tough when you have a concern that the neighbors might attack at any time. You're not relaxed. You're vigilant. But...no attack ever comes. They're staying at this very high level of tension (but without any fighting) more-or-less indefinitely. The Fëanoreans have more supplies and the Fingolfinians have more people, but they're not exactly exchanging goods, here. They're not working together. {So, is this still....HIGH? If so, how do we indicate a sustained threat at this level?}

With the disappearance of Fingon, the threat level bumps up to SEVERE again, and we have the events play out in Acts 3 and 4. That is fine, and we're going to show that meeting disintegrate. So, I'm not too worried about convincing the audience how dire the situation is there. Ditto with the beginning, when we have people in the camps saying what they think of the other camp to set the scene.

But...how do you show that slightly-reduced-but-still-highly-alert threat level? On the surface, it appears as if the groups are just going about their lives during this interval. Showing them not make plans to attack Morgoth or not portion off Beleriand isn't showing anything. What are they doing in this time? We don't have to show a lot of it, but I would feel better about this outline if I knew how we were conveying that state of alertness to the audience. What are their long-term goals, before this all comes to a head? Are they just going to...camp out next to Lake Mithrim...forever?

*In reality, this chart is never used to indicate green or blue levels. Whether or not you're worried about being attacked, there's always a chance you will be. And in Beleriand, the Noldor will live in constant threat from Morgoth throughout the First Age. But...there are lower threat times, like the Mereth Aderthad and the Siege (prior to Glaurung's appearance). In Episode 1, we're not in this 'low threat' stage, even though Morgoth is doing...essentially nothing. Doom of Mandos!
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
To me, what is challenging about this episode is demonstrating the tension between the Noldor camps. To use this handy chart*, how likely is it that our kin will attack us today? This is not a war situation and there is no kinslaying. No skirmishes of any sort break out. It's more like a de-militarized zone. But I'm not sure how official the no-man's-land designations are? Like....are they just...staying away from each other? They are establishing a perimeter and fortifying the camps, and we can show that. But if this is like the boundary between North and South Korea...how do you *show* that?




We start out with the Host of Fingolfin mad as hornets. They just marched across the Ice because Fëanor betrayed them and stole the ships (again). They confronted Morgoth at Angband and then turned away from the gates. They marched to Mithrim. They set up a camp. At this point, the tension between the Host of Fingolfin and the Host of Fëanor is fairly high. If we have to assign a color to the question of 'how likely is it that violence will break out?' when the two full groups see each other for the first time, we're at a SEVERE.

And then.... They find out that Fëanor's dead and Maglor's in charge. That...changes things, but it doesn't make them less angry. So, they're still mad, but not actively plotting a war. I guess the threat level drops, a little bit? Maybe to HIGH.

And then...the camps just stare at each other across the lake for a long time. We know they aren't plotting war against Angband; they're too worried about the immediate threat staring at them. So, they more or less do nothing? It's awkward to show what they are doing. Because, la la la, going about our business....is tough when you have a concern that the neighbors might attack at any time. You're not relaxed. You're vigilant. But...no attack ever comes. They're staying at this very high level of tension (but without any fighting) more-or-less indefinitely. The Fëanoreans have more supplies and the Fingolfinians have more people, but they're not exactly exchanging goods, here. They're not working together.

With the disappearance of Fingon, the threat level bumps up to SEVERE again, and we have the events play out in Acts 3 and 4. That is fine, and we're going to show that meeting disintegrate. So, I'm not too worried about convincing the audience how dire the situation is there. Ditto with the beginning, when we have people in the camps saying what they think of the other camp to set the scene.

But...how do you show that slightly-reduced-but-still-highly-alert threat level? On the surface, it appears as if the groups are just going about their lives during this interval. Showing them not make plans to attack Morgoth or not portion off Beleriand isn't showing anything. What are they doing in this time? We don't have to show a lot of it, but I would feel better about this outline if I knew how we were conveying that state of alertness to the audience. What are their long-term goals, before this all comes to a head? Are they just going to...camp out next to Lake Mithrim...forever?

*In reality, this chart is never used to indicate green or blue levels. Whether or not you're worried about being attacked, there's always a chance you will be. And in Beleriand, the Noldor will live in constant threat from Morgoth throughout the First Age. But...there are lower threat times, like the Mereth Aderthad and the Siege (prior to Glaurung's appearance). In Episode 1, we're not in this 'low threat' stage, even though Morgoth is doing...essentially nothing. Doom of Mandos!
And I would say that if we show them below an "Elevated" state, than we will lose some of the story's tension. This is one of the reasons I have been generally against them staying in this situation for very long.


On another note, in the scene where Maglor's messenger shows up at Fingolfin's camp, someone (perhaps Angrod) could point out how guilty them fleeing to the other side of the lake makes them look. Then perhaps Curufin could say something about the move as well in the later scene. I ... think ... we mentioned this, but I could be remembering incorrectly.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
To me, what is challenging about this episode is demonstrating the tension between the Noldor camps. To use this handy chart*, how likely is it that our kin will attack us today? This is not a war situation and there is no kinslaying. No skirmishes of any sort break out. It's more like a de-militarized zone. But I'm not sure how official the no-man's-land designations are? Like....are they just...staying away from each other? They are establishing a perimeter and fortifying the camps, and we can show that. But if this is like the boundary between North and South Korea...how do you *show* that?




We start out with the Host of Fingolfin mad as hornets. They just marched across the Ice because Fëanor betrayed them and stole the ships (again). They confronted Morgoth at Angband and then turned away from the gates. They marched to Mithrim. They set up a camp. At this point, the tension between the Host of Fingolfin and the Host of Fëanor is fairly high. If we have to assign a color to the question of 'how likely is it that violence will break out?' when the two full groups see each other for the first time, we're at a SEVERE.

And then.... They find out that Fëanor's dead and Maglor's in charge. That...changes things, but it doesn't make them less angry. So, they're still mad, but not actively plotting a war. I guess the threat level drops, a little bit? Maybe to HIGH.

And then...the camps just stare at each other across the lake for a long time. We know they aren't plotting war against Angband; they're too worried about the immediate threat staring at them. So, they more or less do nothing? It's awkward to show what they are doing. Because, la la la, going about our business....is tough when you have a concern that the neighbors might attack at any time. You're not relaxed. You're vigilant. But...no attack ever comes. They're staying at this very high level of tension (but without any fighting) more-or-less indefinitely. The Fëanoreans have more supplies and the Fingolfinians have more people, but they're not exactly exchanging goods, here. They're not working together.

With the disappearance of Fingon, the threat level bumps up to SEVERE again, and we have the events play out in Acts 3 and 4. That is fine, and we're going to show that meeting disintegrate. So, I'm not too worried about convincing the audience how dire the situation is there. Ditto with the beginning, when we have people in the camps saying what they think of the other camp to set the scene.

But...how do you show that slightly-reduced-but-still-highly-alert threat level? On the surface, it appears as if the groups are just going about their lives during this interval. Showing them not make plans to attack Morgoth or not portion off Beleriand isn't showing anything. What are they doing in this time? We don't have to show a lot of it, but I would feel better about this outline if I knew how we were conveying that state of alertness to the audience. What are their long-term goals, before this all comes to a head? Are they just going to...camp out next to Lake Mithrim...forever?

*In reality, this chart is never used to indicate green or blue levels. Whether or not you're worried about being attacked, there's always a chance you will be. And in Beleriand, the Noldor will live in constant threat from Morgoth throughout the First Age. But...there are lower threat times, like the Mereth Aderthad and the Siege (prior to Glaurung's appearance). In Episode 1, we're not in this 'low threat' stage, even though Morgoth is doing...essentially nothing. Doom of Mandos!
Perhaps they're waiting for one group to attack, like the Cold War, or better yet like the Butter Battle Book?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Well, they fortify their camps as best they can both in defense against a sortie from Angband, and because neither group trusts the other. Maglor has every reason to believe that Fingolfin will attack them, and Fingolfin does nothing to disabuse him of this notion. Fingolfin knows full well that the Feanorians have betrayed him before, and that they are willing to draw blood if they think someone stands in their way.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Someone told me she’d once been in a house on the Korean border; the border went literally through the house, so half of the house, which only had one room, was in North Korea, and half of it was in South Korea. She told me that there was a guard in each of the four corners of the one room. Those four guards, two from each country, didn’t just stand there, but they were totally prepared to shoot at any time. They were almost positioned to attack, although I don’t think they actually pointed their guns at anyone. It was a demanding job, so to ensure that the guards maintained full concentration, they were replaced every twenty minutes or so.

I’m not saying we should do exactly this.

I do think that Fingolfin and his army should be ready to attack, and that we should show that a battle almost breaks out when Maglor’s first messengers appear. They should be under threat from archers all through the scene. This level of aggression could return after Fingon goes missing, so that the meeting starts with an active request, someone says ‘could we please lower our bows for a moment’, or something similar.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Someone told me she’d once been in a house on the Korean border; the border went literally through the house, so half of the house, which only had one room, was in North Korea, and half of it was in South Korea. She told me that there was a guard in each of the four corners of the one room. Those four guards, two from each country, didn’t just stand there, but they were totally prepared to shoot at any time. They were almost positioned to attack, although I don’t think they actually pointed their guns at anyone. It was a demanding job, so to ensure that the guards maintained full concentration, they were replaced every twenty minutes or so.

I’m not saying we should do exactly this.

I do think that Fingolfin and his army should be ready to attack, and that we should show that a battle almost breaks out when Maglor’s first messengers appear. They should be under threat from archers all through the scene. This level of aggression could return after Fingon goes missing, so that the meeting starts with an active request, someone says ‘could we please lower our bows for a moment’, or something similar.
I'll tell you one thing, it's a good thing Fingolfin doesn't know what Maedhros tried to pull on Sauron...
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Someone told me she’d once been in a house on the Korean border; the border went literally through the house, so half of the house, which only had one room, was in North Korea, and half of it was in South Korea. She told me that there was a guard in each of the four corners of the one room. Those four guards, two from each country, didn’t just stand there, but they were totally prepared to shoot at any time. They were almost positioned to attack, although I don’t think they actually pointed their guns at anyone. It was a demanding job, so to ensure that the guards maintained full concentration, they were replaced every twenty minutes or so.

I’m not saying we should do exactly this.

I do think that Fingolfin and his army should be ready to attack, and that we should show that a battle almost breaks out when Maglor’s first messengers appear. They should be under threat from archers all through the scene. This level of aggression could return after Fingon goes missing, so that the meeting starts with an active request, someone says ‘could we please lower our bows for a moment’, or something similar.
That is more or less a situation like the one i had proposed in my thread on the camps in mithrim...
only that my point was that life still goes on and they would not just live in tents and wear arms all day for those years...
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
That is more or less a situation like the one i had proposed in my thread on the camps in mithrim...
only that my point was that life still goes on and they would not just live in tents and wear arms all day for those years...
And in the rest of Korea, life does go on, just not within sight of the enemy.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
How far along, materials wise, do we want the camps to be developed before they're abandoned and the Noldor make more permanent settlements? Canvas? Wood? Rough stone?
This has been a point of much contention amongst most folks who are all getting a bit over it. I can say that if the elves start building functional settlements, wooden buildings, farms, it will reduce the tension of that particular plotline.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
This has been a point of much contention amongst most folks who are all getting a bit over it. I can say that if the elves start building functional settlements, wooden buildings, farms, it will reduce the tension of that particular plotline.
And will these be abandoned/broken down once the Noldor decide to spread out and make more permanent settlements?
 
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