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S08E01 Script Discussion

MithLuin

MithLuin

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Staff member
We will be holding our first script discussion for Season 8 on Friday May 22nd at 8 PM Eastern time (link incoming as we get closer to the time)

Anyone and everyone is welcome to join us to discuss and decide how to begin Season 8 in our first episode of the Season. As a heads up, the script discussions usually take about 4 hours to hammer out everything that needs to happen in an episode.

The general idea of content is:
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In the most recent session, we discussed whether Rían's story or the broader Dor-lómin story should be the primary plot of the episode. Rían's story will be a more coherent story focusing on one person's dilemma, but for that reason, it's going to be somewhat removed from the occupation. So, she's probably a B-plot, but it's okay if we give her equal screentime (if needed).
 

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One thing occurred to me since the other night is the disposition of the Dragon-Helm. Morwen should quickly conceal it in Scene 5 to prevent the Easterlings from getting their hands on it.
 
We also did not wind up discussing a role or fate for Hareth, so that is still on the table.

In addition, we are in need of a name for the "capital city" of Dor-lómin, the location where the Hall of the House of Hador is located. We saw this location many times throughout Season 7, but I don't think we ever named it (oops!)

We jokingly referred to it as "Forever Estolad," as it is meant to represent the permanent settlement of what had once been a nomadic people who came together temporarily for the Allthing-like meeting on the plains of Estolad.
 
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We discussed Morwen's arc in this episode from trying to lead like the 'Lady of Dor-lómin' to leading like a wise-woman of the House of Bëor. I was thinking that maybe in scene 1 she could be trying to 'do an Emeldir' - gathering the folk to refugee out of Dor-lómin. That doesn't succeed as they are a) caught up by the Easterlings and b) the Easterlings are not Orcs. So the shift for her is from emulating Emeldir to emulating Andreth? I think that makes sense for her character.
 
I mean, we could be really horrible about Hareth and have her stay behind during the evacuation and refuse to give up the hall unfought. Having her attack Brodda and Lorgan and be quickly cut down before they even realize who is attacking them might help establish Brodda's exasperation when he catches up with the refugees later.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
I mean, we could be really horrible about Hareth and have her stay behind during the evacuation and refuse to give up the hall unfought. Having her attack Brodda and Lorgan and be quickly cut down before they even realize who is attacking them might help establish Brodda's exasperation when he catches up with the refugees later.
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I was thinking that the evacuation plan might be to go to Brethil (as Emeldir did). So there might be an assumption that Hareth would welcome going 'home', as it were. But I was thinking that as the former Lady of Dor-lómin, she may be reluctant to leave the halls unfought. We could stage it so that Lorgan or Brodda had no choice but to kill her in the moment. That could be part of Scene 2.
 
Ilana Mushin said:
I was thinking that the evacuation plan might be to go to Brethil (as Emeldir did). So there might be an assumption that Hareth would welcome going 'home', as it were. But I was thinking that as the former Lady of Dor-lómin, she may be reluctant to leave the halls unfought. We could stage it so that Lorgan or Brodda had no choice but to kill her in the moment. That could be part of Scene 2.
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If it’s Lorgan who kills her, that could be a nice parallel with Brodda sparing Turin immediately after.
 
Yeah, I am very hesitant to make this into a PG-rated invasion where no one gets hurt. Making it Hareth's fault she's killed isn't much better, and making unhinged bad guy Lorgan kill her so Brodda keeps his hands clean also feels sanitizing. If Hareth defends the rearguard while the Easterlings catch up with them, she has the same instinct as Túrin (not a bad thing). If we give her a final stand, I don't want it to feel pointless to the audience.
 
Ilana Mushin said:
Or it could show Brodda's complexity as a character to have killed Hareth but spared Túrin. I can't decide!
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Complexity or incoherant random capriciousness? Or do we want to make Brodda sexist? Would he kill a woman but not a child? Knowing well the child will be a problem in the future? Most warrior cultures would tend to do the opposite: kill the future problem over a woman who can be managed relatively easily. So if we let him do something culturaly contra-intuitve, that needs some in-story explanation. Otherwise it just seems like mere plot armour.
 
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Odola said:
Complexity or incoherant random capriciousness? Or do we want to make Brodda sexist? Would he kill a woman but not a child? Knowing well the child will be a problem in the future? Most warrior cultures would tend to do the opposite: kill the future problem over a woman who can be managed relatively easily. So if we let him do something culturaly contra-intuitve, that needs some in-story explanation. Otherwise it just seems like mere plot armour.
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Yeah, so there is a clear difference in situation here. What I'm suggesting is that Hareth comes out of nowhere when Brodda and Lorgan enter the hall and it happens so quickly that she's been dropped before anyone can even assess the situation. In the scene when the soldiers catch up with the people of Dor-Lómin in the woods, Túrin is acting defensively.

The difference isn't that Hareth is an older woman and Turin is a young boy. The difference is the circumstances, and I'm sure the audience is smart enough to pick up on that.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Yeah, so there is a clear difference in situation here. What I'm suggesting is that Hareth comes out of nowhere when Brodda and Lorgan enter the hall and it happens so quickly that she's been dropped before anyone can even assess the situation. In the scene when the soldiers catch up with the people of Dor-Lómin in the woods, Túrin is acting defensively.

The difference isn't that Hareth is an older woman and Turin is a young boy. The difference is the circumstances, and I'm sure the audience is smart enough to pick up on that.
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Valid. I just wanted to draw attention to the fact that mere randomness of depicted behaviour in itself does not really make a character appear complex, but just confusing and not thought through.
 
MithLuin said:
Yeah, I am very hesitant to make this into a PG-rated invasion where no one gets hurt. Making it Hareth's fault she's killed isn't much better, and making unhinged bad guy Lorgan kill her so Brodda keeps his hands clean also feels sanitizing. If Hareth defends the rearguard while the Easterlings catch up with them, she has the same instinct as Túrin (not a bad thing). If we give her a final stand, I don't want it to feel pointless to the audience.
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I expect her death to be heroic. She doesn't have to die alone. We had Gelir's mother appear and have lines last season. She would also be Aerin's mother. Perhaps they could mount a rearguard act together. These aren't 'old' women either. They are probably about my age (mid-50s).
 
Ilana Mushin said:
I expect her death to be heroic. She doesn't have to die alone. We had Gelir's mother appear and have lines last season. She would also be Aerin's mother. Perhaps they could mount a rearguard act together. These aren't 'old' women either. They are probably about my age (mid-50s).
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That's actually "old" in prehistoric times, without healthcare, supplements, vitamins and with common malnourishment and back-breaking work. After the Nírnaeth Arnediad the Edain were scattered, enslaved, hiding in the forests, under Morgoth's shadow. The physical toll of that particular period would be heavy even on a people with the naturally extended vigour of the elf-friends nations. There's also a meaningful distinction between lifespan and healthspan. Tolkien's Edain tend to live longer and their vigour lasts further into life, but "vigour" means something like late-middle-age vitality extended, not immunity to the consequences of starvation and servitude. A woman of 55 who has spent the last decade under Morgoth's shadow, possibly enslaved or hiding in forests, would carry that in her body. She might still be formidable in the way that survivors are, but she'd look her age and then some.
 
Odola said:
"vigour" means something like late-middle-age vitality extended
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This is an assumption that need not be made. Also, I suggest that you read the outline so that you have a better understanding of the timeline, which might help with what you're missing here.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
This is an assumption that need not be made. Also, I suggest that you read the outline so that you have a better understanding of the timeline, which might help with what you're missing here.
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Well, if not for "late-middle-age vitality extended", then even more so a 50-year-old in a pre-industrial society would appear as a seasoned elder. She would look considerably older than a modern 50-year-old due to the cumulative effects of manual labor, exposure to animal-derived infections, subpar housing, unrelenting weather exposure, poor dentition, and a general lack of modern medicine.
 
Odola said:
Well, if not for "late-middle-age vitality extended", then even more so a 50-year-old in a pre-industrial society would appear as a seasoned elder. She would look considerably older than a modern 50-year-old due to the cumulative effects of manual labor, exposure to animal-derived infections, subpar housing, unrelenting weather exposure, poor dentition, and a general lack of modern medicine.
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Maybe, but I think you might be getting a lot of mileage out of the world "considerably". Ultimately, we're not talking about some sort of crone here. A mature woman who can still get around just fine. One of the Edain, who has had the benefit of living in a culture that has had access to Elves most of her life. And a noblewoman at that, likely to have had less manual labor, the best housing and medical care available, and lower than average weather exposure.
 
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