Sam's free will

A

antistrophy

New Member
The discussion in 191 about Sam's "volunteering" and Elrond's response made me think again about the hobbit's meeting with Gildor.

Gildor is afraid to tell Frodo too much, and is reluctant to give any advice, apparently from fear of nudging Frodo away from the path of his destiny, from playing his part in the music. But with Sam, they not only seem to give him advice, they actually make him promise to stay with Frodo. Why are they not afraid of disrupting Sam's destiny?

I see two possibilities:

1. Sam's free will doesn't matter, or as a servant he has already handed his free will over to Frodo. This I cannot believe, and is not supported elsewhere.

2. Sam's part in the music, and his total commitment to following it, is so blindingly clear to them that they have no fear of nudging him away from it. Not only is it obvious that Sam's plan (at last so far as serving Frodo) is the right thing to do and part of the music, but also that Sam wants to do this -- therefore it can only be to the good for them to confirm and reenforce this. Thus they leave Sam with a renewed commitment, and the insight that this is the right path.

What do you think?

P.S. I have been following your podcasts since before you created Signum, but always in offline podcasts. Someday soon I hope to join you live! Thank you!
 
"'If you dont come back, sir, then I shan't, that's certain,' said Sam. 'Don't you leave him! they say to me. Leave him! I said. I never mean to. I am going with him, if he climbs to the Moon, and if any of those Black Riders try to stop him, they'll have Sam Gamgee to reckon with, I said.'" (Fellowship of the Ring p. 97)

These are the actual words as Sam tells them to Frodo the morning after their stay with Gildor and the Elves. The Elves did not make him promise, and he never actually spoke a promise or oath. But his solemn mood and new sense of purpose do show that something has changed for him, and when he tells this to Frodo, it's a pledge. I don't think the Elves made him do anything, but Sam has taken it on.

I don't think the Elves have required anything of him at all. It's Sam dedicating himself to the task ahead.
 
The Elves don't make him promise, but they do say "Don't you leave him" (or words to that effect), while with Frodo they are very reluctant to give even advice. There is a difference there.
 
I wonder what they talked about before they said that. I can imagine Sam telling about how Gandalf enfenestrated him and then told him he would go with Frodo. They question him and he tells them they are leaving the Shire since they already knew it. He has been listening to Gildor and Frodo (the way he's going to listen to everything that happens in the Council of Elrond, and the way he was listening under the window at Bag End), and they can see and hear his devotion. They might even be laughing when they say "Don't you leave him" as they laugh after his answer. It could very well be said in a lighter tone than the word advice implies. But for Sam the whole experience is like a consecration - all very serious and filled with wonder.
 
antistrophy said:
The Elves don't make him promise, but they do say "Don't you leave him" (or words to that effect), while with Frodo they are very reluctant to give even advice. There is a difference there.
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Yes, but context is important. The Hobbits are walking across the Shire where it might be expected that Sam might find a friendly place of refuge if he ran away from the Black Riders, leaving Frodo vulnerable. Leaving the Shire to go to Rivendell could be a daunting prospect that some encouragement might help.
Note that the Elves don’t say ‘Don’t you ever leave him’, so I think it is possible to read too much into it.
If the Elves understand that the power of the Nazgûl is effectively reduced by the Hobbits remaining together, then it is good advice that would seem to have little impact on destiny.
If Elrond isn’t convinced that Frodo will be the appointed bearer until the Council and this party of Elves don’t know that they have the Ring with them, then it’s not reasonable to think that Gildor and company expect the end of Frodo’s road to be at Mt Doom.

If Frodo found refuge in Rivendell and went no further, I think the advice of Gildor and company would have run its course.
 
Well, Sam asks to go with Frodo three times (well, the third time he jumps into the water to demand it) - first with Gandalf, and then at the end of the Council, and of course when Frodo tries to leave by himself.

Anthony, that's interesting - it's easy to forget how little they actually know about what Frodo is doing. But I think they see that this is a matter of great importance, or the Enemy wouldn't be after him, and everything Gildor and the others say is weighted with this knowledge. They could tell it was important enough for them to invite the hobbits to come with them - they do understand that much. They know that the meeting itself is filled with meaning, however little of that meaning they understand. So everything they say bears the seriousness of the situation in mind, and especially the related fact that Gandalf is missing. So I doubt they are saying to Sam, don't go running off when you get scared. And Sam doesn't understand it that way.
 
Rachel Port said:
Well, Sam asks to go with Frodo three times (well, the third time he jumps into the water to demand it) - first with Gandalf, and then at the end of the Council, and of course when Frodo tries to leave by himself.

Anthony, that's interesting - it's easy to forget how little they actually know about what Frodo is doing. But I think they see that this is a matter of great importance, or the Enemy wouldn't be after him, and everything Gildor and the others say is weighted with this knowledge. They could tell it was important enough for them to invite the hobbits to come with them - they do understand that much. They know that the meeting itself is filled with meaning, however little of that meaning they understand. So everything they say bears the seriousness of the situation in mind, and especially the related fact that Gandalf is missing. So I doubt they are saying to Sam, don't go running off when you get scared. And Sam doesn't understand it that way.
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Why do you doubt that they are saying that? The very seriousness of the situation and the fact that Gandalf is missing are the factors that might make a scared companion run off. Fatty Bolger gives an example of a Hobbit that isn’t prepared to stick by Frodo’s side all the way to Rivendell. That’s not said to take anything away from his act of bravery when assailed at Crickhollow.

I agree that the Elves understand the gravity of the situation. What I think the Elves don’t understand well is the Hobbits.

Getting back to the original post, I don’t think the Elves believe their advice to Sam is destiny altering as it is really just reinforcement of what one might expect from a servant in the situation, while advising Frodo seems much more fraught.
 
Anthony Lawther said:
Why do you doubt that they are saying that? The very seriousness of the situation and the fact that Gandalf is missing are the factors that might make a scared companion run off. Fatty Bolger gives an example of a Hobbit that isn’t prepared to stick by Frodo’s side all the way to Rivendell. That’s not said to take anything away from his act of bravery when assailed at Crickhollow.

I agree that the Elves understand the gravity of the situation. What I think the Elves don’t understand well is the Hobbits.

Getting back to the original post, I don’t think the Elves believe their advice to Sam is destiny altering as it is really just reinforcement of what one might expect from a servant in the situation, while advising Frodo seems much more fraught.
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Fatty Bolger shows his courage by running away from the house at Crickhollow, and his strength by not being paralyzed by his fear as the Nazgul obviously expect. But his deciding not to go with Frodo emphasizes the reason I see no need to tell Sam not to run away when he's scared: the conspiritors each assessed his ability to stick with it; those who did decide to go made a commitment and those who felt they couldn't stick it out didn't start. The choice that Sam makes, as well as Merry and Pippin, shows that they are prepared to go all the way to Rivendell. It's not a lark for them - though they don't understand the severity of what they will face, they are determined to face it. It's what Gandalf tells Elrond when he says Merry and Pippin should be allowed to be part of the Company. I also see that "Don't you leave him!" as a positive, though put in a negative form; it's Sam's own way of saying things - the same way as his "But not alone, surely, Master!" is a positive.

True - everyone underestimates the hobbits. A remarkable race, very tough in the fiber.
 
It is not correct to say Gildor gives Frodo no advice. He is direct
You must now make haste, and neither stay nor turn back; for the Shire is no longer any protection for you
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He follows this with
I think you should still follow that plan
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While he is careful in not going too far he is active in advising Frodo.
Advising Sam follows from his advice to Frodo
 
Did someone say Gildor didn't give Frodo any advice. I only understood that Gildor was reluctant to do so, and was careful in his advice. But I hadn't thought about Sam listening and taking it for himself as well. It's a good point.
 
Rachel I was reacting to OPs comment that looked for some deeper rational for Gildor advising Sam in a way that he did not advise Frodo. I think Gildor gives both advice and while he is careful he is also direct and clear.
Gildor is afraid to tell Frodo too much, and is reluctant to give any advice, apparently from fear of nudging Frodo away from the path of his destiny, from playing his part in the music. But with Sam, they not only seem to give him advice, they actually make him promise to stay with Frodo. Why are they not afraid of disrupting Sam's destiny?
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I do agree that Gildor did give Frodo advice, but only when pressed; while they seems to give Sam advice more directly.

Anthony, I like the way you put it - the elves are just reinforcing what would be expected of Sam (and what he clearly wants). But advising Frodo is much more fraught, and must be more carefully handled. That is the difference I am seeing.
 
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