Sauron's Morgoth Moment

i agree. still on numenor saurin was still a follower and servant, but later he himself wants to be a god, and one in a monotheist cult, not some sort of lesser deity.
This is not immediately relevant, but I suspect Sauron directing the Numenoreans' worship to Morgoth rather than himself was more tactical decision than lingering loyalty: after all, he had just surrendered without a fight. He could hardly turn around and tell them he was the only true god, now could he?
 
I'm not entirely sure of that...
there definitely was a tactical element to it, but i really do think there was still loyalty and adherence to melkor in him at that point.
 
Right - prior to the Numenor stuff, Sauron makes the One Ring, raises an army, builds Barad-dur, and conquers (almost) all of Middle Earth.

So...he was quite bent on the world-domination-in-his-own-right path.

That was foiled when Numenor showed up with a really powerful fleet and his armies wouldn't fight them. He had to implement Plan B: the prisoner who takes over the kingdom from within.
 
I'm not entirely sure of that...
there definitely was a tactical element to it, but i really do think there was still loyalty and adherence to melkor in him at that point.
Hm... that's definitely something I'd like to talk through more. I'd love to hear your reasoning here.
 
Loyalty to Melkor can still come post-"Morgoth moment". Previously, he was all "Melkor has the right idea for ordering and managing the world, even if the world is unwilling, for its own good". Afterward, he can be all "Melkor has the right idea for subjugating and dominating and torturing and being a huge butthole"
 
my main argument would be the way he describes and praises melkor/alkar, which not only sounds like he wanted to convince people, but really sounds like he Does in fact adore and think very high of melkor himself (of course some obvious lies are also worked in as well).
 
Loyalty to Melkor can still come post-"Morgoth moment". Previously, he was all "Melkor has the right idea for ordering and managing the world, even if the world is unwilling, for its own good". Afterward, he can be all "Melkor has the right idea for subjugating and dominating and torturing and being a huge butthole"
Or, said less comically, "Morgoth was right to despise this world, and to seek to remake it in his own image."
 
Yeah exactly. Sauron is explicitly held as "maybe" less evil, in that for long he followed the will of another. But if we are starting out with him as not specifically evil, just sort of authoritarian with a corrupted idea of right and wrong, he can still later turn to pure evil (ie. have a "Morgoth moment") without renouncing his former master - I mean, the Balrogs are purely evil and they follow the will of another.
 
i think that sauron never really fully got morgoths nihilism. morgoth was not really into subjugating the world and ruling it, those were only small steps in his personal feud with illuvatar.. in the core he wanted to ravish and annihilate the creation, to prove illuvatar wrong. saurin never seems to have thought that far... he was happy with his personal power.
 
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Ok I guess I've been thinking about two different things here... One thing is the moment when Sauron turns to evil ways and never goes back. The other thing is the moment when he isn't redeemable any more. I'd say the first thing happens after he repents and when he decides to hide and stay in Middle-earth. The second is when he forges the One Ring, at least in my book. (Edit: I think that the fact that he's called the Lord of the Rings is significant...)
 
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The key moment is when he goes from passive acceptance of evil to active participant and initiator of evil. I think that if we show Sauron as, for most of the First Age, operating under the dual self-conceit of 'just following orders' and 'for the greater good', we can, at least in Sauron's mind, leave open the hope of redemption. As Haakon says, the first time when Sauron seems to accept the fact that maybe he was fooling himself and that he really was a bad guy was when he hid from the Valar. But what sparks that? What makes Sauron look in the mirror? Wouldn't it be interesting if there was an initial panel of judgment for those hoping to return to the Valar's graces, and as Sauron is walking up to it, he sees that Finrod is one of those sitting in judgment? Sauron then goes to Eonwe and appeals to him, Maia to Maia, and is told that if he takes this path, then only the Valar (and Mandos) can judge him. That's when Sauron realizes that no matter how he tries to rationalize it, he is a bad guy. So he runs... and decides to accept that role.
 
While I am fine with Sauron *at first* thinking of himself as a hero rather than a villain, I am not sure how long he can maintain that.

Certainly, when he chooses Melkor's power over Manwë's wishy-washy (to his view) leadership, he can see himself as the hero, trying to do right by Middle Earth. But that is a deliberate choice on his part, to reveal the location of the newly-awakened elves to Melkor rather than the Valar. And, during his stint in Angband during Season 2, he can see himself as the good cop to the balrogs and Tevildo's bad cop - he's the one who is working towards a just cause, and clearly he has a purer vision than these degenerates he's stuck with. But he's already doing unethical medical experiments, so the argument that he's still a 'good guy' is already quite thin.

Does that make him Scar amongst the hyenas, longing for the day when he can set things right by being in charge and doing things *his* way? [How evil is Scar before he kills Mufasa?]

But then Morgoth returns, and he's angry and bitter and wants to see the world burn. And Sauron takes all of his orders and does quite objectively evil things on his own account. I can't see Sauron maintaining, 'but I'm really the good guy here!' past Season 3. By the end of Season 4, he takes Finrod's tower of Minas Tirith and turns it into the Isle of Werewolves. He was the Lieutenant of Angband when Melkor held Utumno, and now that Morgoth rules Angband, he's the lieutenant of the stolen tower on Tol-in-Gaurhoth. And then in Season 5, he's tricking Gorlim with a false ghost of his dead wife, killing all of Finrod's people with werewolves, and taking the form of a werewolf himself to fight Huan. And this is leaving aside how Morgoth and Sauron work out the corruption of Men after they awaken.

To somehow think that Sauron is 'only following orders' throughout the entire First Age strains credulity. He's not an idiot. He's someone who makes calculated choices. And yes, he uses the arguments of fallen Saruman to justify himself...but keep in mind that Saruman has already fallen quite far by the time he makes that argument to Gandalf. He's breeding Uruk-hai in the basement, has been actively seeking the One Ring for years, and is dabbling in ring-making himself (even if it only gives him control of Grima).

Later 1st Age Sauron could justify himself by saying 'but would you really want *Gothmog* calling the shots? surely I'm the better choice' or even see himself as someone who recognizes Morgoth's madness and can steer/manipulate his master. But that's a dangerous place to go - Morgoth demands total obedience. He doesn't appreciate clever underlings doing their own thing. He wants all to be ordered according to his own will, and if it doesn't obey him, it should be annihilated. A Sauron who is actively striving to be a good guy (slightly more grey than black bad guy?) in the hierarchy of Angband would be someone much braver than Sauron later becomes. It's...probably unnecessary to do that with his character. Sauron who sets up cults of Morgoth is clearly a worshipper in his own right at times.

Good-in-comparison-to-the-company-he-keeps fits Season 2 Sauron. It does *not* fit Season 5 Sauron. He's embraced his role as a villain long before the end of the First Age. He seems to gleefully trick/torture/kill his enemies, and no semblance of 'but it's for their own good' remains. How does he get there? We'll have Seasons 3 and 4 to answer that question, but, 'following Morgoth's lead' will get you there quickly.

Sauron falls way more gradually than most of our villains. This is death by a thousand cuts. But he does fall. Morgoth's defeat is a wake-up call, and he almost kinda repents there...but in the end chooses to continue in the way he has been going.
 
wouldn't the first thing morgoth would teach his people tjat there really is no good or evil? i mean at least sauron seems to be all about power and control...
 
Key moments for Mairon/Sauron:

1st Season:
The debate of the Valar to go to Valinor. Mairon disapproves of Manwë's leadership in this moment.
Seeking out Melkor privately.
Key decision - after his discovery of the newly awakened elves, he returns to Utumno and informs Melkor of their location
Gothmog gives him the name 'Sauron' in derision.

2nd Season:
Dark Hunter roleplaying game where he kidnaps elves and keeps them captive in Angband. This is more humane than the balrogs, who hunt to kill the elves once they reach Beleriand. Also, he is acting on Melkor's direct orders.
Werewolf research and elf research.
Trying to get the captive elves to worship Melkor and view him as a god worthy of complete obedience.
End result - an army of werewolves and captive elves loyal to him that raises the ire of the balrogs.

3rd Season:
Turns the captive elf army (who calls him Sauron) over to Morgoth. Suddenly, orcs!

4th Season:
Takes the tower of Minas Tirith as his own. It becomes the Isle of Werewolves.

5th Season:
Sets out to destroy Barahir's band of outlaws. Discovers Gorlim's weakness. Captures him using a false ghost of his wife. Barahir's men all slaughtered.
Suspicious of Finrod's orc band - questions him in a duel of song, stripping the disguises away. Throws them in his dungeon til they talk. Kills them one by one with werewolves, saving Finrod for last (likely suspecting his identity). Keep in mind some of the words in that song duel....'Whom do ye serve, Light or Mirk? Who is the maker of mightiest work? Who is the king of earthly kings, the greatest giver of gold and rings?' He knows that they are no orcs when they refuse to renew their oaths to Angband.
Takes the form of a werewolf himself to fight Huan. Loses. Flees in vampire form.

Later 1st Age:
He returns to Angband, right?
We are involving him in the fall of Gondolin, certainly. He may even be helping to orchestrate the death of Gothmog there.

End of the 1st Age:
After witnessing the defeat of Morgoth, he has a moment to make a decision about his own future. He surrenders to Eonwë and asks for pardon. He is told to turn himself in to the Valar in Valinor...but does not do that. Eonwë is the last person to ever call him 'Mairon.'

2nd Age:
Screw repentance! Takes on the Annatar form and offers to 'help' the elves. Círdan and Gil-galad tell him to get lost. Celebrimbor says, 'Tell me more...'
Teaches Celebrimbor to make magic rings. Forges the One Ring himself in Mordor. When the elves realize they are betrayed, he raises an army and razes Eregion. Uses Celebrimbor's dead body as a battle standard.

Elves retreat. Sauron rules Middle Earth! Fun with ringwraiths.

Numenor shows up with a huge fleet. Sauron's armies flee. Abandoned, Sauron allows himself to be taken prisoner. Takes over Numenor by proxy of the now puppet-king. Erects a temple to Morgoth, performs human sacrifices in it, and sends the huge fleet to assail Valinor to get rid of it. Big wave. Oops.

Flees bodiless back to Middle Earth. Can never take on a fair form again. Limited to evil warlord or formless shadow from here on out.

Remnant of Numenor forms Last Alliance with the Elves of Middle Earth. Sauron loses his body and his Ring.

3rd Age:
Takes a thousand years or so, but he eventually regroups enough to become the Necromancer of Dol Guldor.
Returns to Mordor, rebuilds Barad-dur, and restarts the 'take over the world!' plan.



2nd Season Sauron is still in 'necessary evil' this-is-all-for-the-greater-good mode. He's not yet gleefully sadistic (and perhaps never gets there). But we do have to be careful not to keep him too naïve/innocent. In Tolkien's world, I don't think there's an 'unforgivable' sin that, once committed, you can't come back from. It's just that once you refuse repentance and decide you don't want to be forgiven that your fate is sealed. Túrin is not named as a villain by Elrond.
 
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Yeah it's definitely in the S3-4 range where it seems like he flirts with the line. And by S5 he's fully all the way across it. So the question is whether there's a specific incident that triggers this (maybe the taking away of his "orc" project? The time is right, it seems to be important to him...) or if it's just the sort of linear progression of his character.
 
Key moments for Mairon/Sauron:
We are involving him in the fall of Gondolin, certainly. He may even be helping to orchestrate the death of Gothmog there.

BTW, been thinking about this, and it's related to Sauron's character.

From the perspective of looking backward from our comfortable post-4th Age viewpoint, it doesn't seem that important of an issue about the details of the fate of Gothmog. But from the perspective of the early 1st Age looking at where we are, this resolution of the Sauron/Gothmog rivalry needs to be satisfying in the moment. If Gothmog just gets chopped down like a chump without any involvement from Sauron, that is not a satisfying end to that rivalry.

But if we can set it up so that Sauron plans for and gets everything he wants (I mean, look at the result - bye bye Gothmog AND bye bye Gondolin - those are pretty good results for Sauron), that's a powerful character development moment for a guy we really need to develop in a more hands-on way than the PubSil does.

And even then it doesn't have to all come up roses for the bad guys - if we make clear that the accomplishing of those two goals also inadvertently leads to Tuor and Celebrindal and Earendil escaping, then that also advances the ultimate cause of the good guys out of the ashes of a horrible defeat. Like, just spitballing here waaay to soon for the project, if Gothmog was in charge of blocking the retreat of the handful of evacuees and his death explicitly opens the way, or something like that.
 
The key event is the return of Morgoth. Sauron has a very healthy respect for Morgoth's power, and wants to see what the world will look like with Melkor ruling it. He's...by this time...a very committed/devoted follower. He doesn't have the zealotry of the balrogs, who are 'true believers' and fanatical. But he's made his choice, he's picked his side, and he's committed to seeing this through.

Considering who Morgoth *is*...following him down that path is going to drag Sauron firmly across the line. In the Season 3-4 timeframe.

The crisis at the end of the First Age (so, season 9 territory?) is that, suddenly, there is no Morgoth to follow. And Sauron does experience a moment of doubt, near-repentance, fear/awe at the power displayed by the hosts of the Valar...something like that.

Blind Guardian deals with the final conversation between Morgoth and Sauron in this way:
'The War of Wrath' - 1st voice is Sauron, 2nd is Morgoth

As you can see, they have painted Sauron as a devoted follower of Morgoth until the end. I don't think that's the exact note we want to hit. For one thing...Morgoth would take all of his followers down with him. He wouldn't magnanimously allow Sauron to escape while he goes down with the ship. Blind Guardian is setting up Morgoth as the protagonist of their concept album, and have to give him his moment to reflect on his failures - so it works for them. But we are going to have to show Sauron make the decision to flee/surrender on his own, not at Morgoth's command. And yet....'my servant you'll be for all time,' is the type of thing Morgoth would say to Sauron at some point. And it would be true, because Sauron *is* Morgoth's high priest as late as Numenor.

We have to keep in mind Gandalf's evaluation of Sauron's character at the end of the 3rd Age:
"For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts."
 
personally i never saw the baleigs as fanatics or believers in anything. to me they were like the eldjotnar incarnations of hate and destructuon.while saurin is more like a mad scientist and fadcist dictator the balrigs are closer to morgoths nihilist attitude.they do not believe in anything, they are into mayhem.
 
We have chosen to portray them as fanatically devoted to Melkor from the very beginning - they immediately followed his lead in the Music.
 
Just now listening to you guys talk about this on Youtube.

The point we're looking for is the point where Sauron changes from "I'm doing my best to follow the music of Illuvatar, and the rest of y'all are totally misinterpreting it - Melkor and I are the only ones who truly understand" to "Screw the music, I'm doing this for ME".
 
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