Script Discussion S04E09
- Thread starter Nicholas Palazzo
- Start date
Let’s send both to the execs...
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Well, let's look at Helm's Deep for a second, since it has come up and we have some relatively solid numbers there. The Uruk-Hai number around 10K (according to Merry and Gandalf) with an auxiliary force of Dunlendings. Based on the way it is described in the book, I don't believe the Dunlendings are a large percentage, so we could call them about 2000.
On the other hand the original defenders number between 1000-2000. This 6:1 advantage is considered insurmountable, once the wall is breached. Then, Gandalf and Erkenbrand arrive with another thousand infantry arrive, routing the Uruk-hai and driving them into a forest of Huorns where they are killed to an Orc.
The problem is that this 4:1 number ends in the defeat of the Orcs, but not their destruction. The average kill count for the defenders isn't 4. And we know that Legolas and Gimli account for almost a hundred by themselves.
So this doesn't say that the average human soldier can kill 4 Uruk-hai, but that if that average human's average human friend jumped out from behind the bushes, the Uruk-hai would run away. And the Uruk-hai are larger, stronger, and less easily intimidated than Orcs.
In addition, the Calaquendi are orders of magnitude more strong than the men of Rohan. How much? Let's look at Legolas' feat of killing over 40 at the battle. Would Legolas be able to defeat a group of 40 Uruk-Hai if he encountered them alone? Maybe, but probably not. There are a few factors contributing to this. One is the defensive fortifications of Helm's Deep, allowing him to shoot the enemy from a place of relative safety. Once the wall is breached, he still isn't the only person the Uruk-hai have to face. Forty guys can't just rush him at once. He likely faces no more than one or two at a time because there are other guys protecting his flanks. Without them, Legolas could get surrounded and overwhelmed. This is the same problem an unprotected balrog would have on a field when his Orcs get swept away. Just saying. These guys around Legolas are not as effective as he is, though, so Legolas gets most of the kills, allowing them to hang in longer than they normally could.
The Noldor are certainly more effective individually than Legolas, but they are also closer to each other in effectiveness. Sure, their heroes will probably be even more so and kill as many or more of the enemy themselves. Individually, though, I'd say the odds should be somewhere between 5:1 and 10:1.
On the other hand the original defenders number between 1000-2000. This 6:1 advantage is considered insurmountable, once the wall is breached. Then, Gandalf and Erkenbrand arrive with another thousand infantry arrive, routing the Uruk-hai and driving them into a forest of Huorns where they are killed to an Orc.
The problem is that this 4:1 number ends in the defeat of the Orcs, but not their destruction. The average kill count for the defenders isn't 4. And we know that Legolas and Gimli account for almost a hundred by themselves.
So this doesn't say that the average human soldier can kill 4 Uruk-hai, but that if that average human's average human friend jumped out from behind the bushes, the Uruk-hai would run away. And the Uruk-hai are larger, stronger, and less easily intimidated than Orcs.
In addition, the Calaquendi are orders of magnitude more strong than the men of Rohan. How much? Let's look at Legolas' feat of killing over 40 at the battle. Would Legolas be able to defeat a group of 40 Uruk-Hai if he encountered them alone? Maybe, but probably not. There are a few factors contributing to this. One is the defensive fortifications of Helm's Deep, allowing him to shoot the enemy from a place of relative safety. Once the wall is breached, he still isn't the only person the Uruk-hai have to face. Forty guys can't just rush him at once. He likely faces no more than one or two at a time because there are other guys protecting his flanks. Without them, Legolas could get surrounded and overwhelmed. This is the same problem an unprotected balrog would have on a field when his Orcs get swept away. Just saying. These guys around Legolas are not as effective as he is, though, so Legolas gets most of the kills, allowing them to hang in longer than they normally could.
The Noldor are certainly more effective individually than Legolas, but they are also closer to each other in effectiveness. Sure, their heroes will probably be even more so and kill as many or more of the enemy themselves. Individually, though, I'd say the odds should be somewhere between 5:1 and 10:1.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
1. Helm's deep is no open field battle, it's a siege and with sieges the besieger is ALWAYS in the more difficult position,
2. Not sure about the dunlendings at all, i think the entire host leaving isengard counts 10000 INCLUDING the Dunlendings.we also don't know how many of the orcs were snagas, half orcs and uruk-hai... the relations are unclear to me.
3. The orcs/Isengarders really were surprised because eomer could engage brutal full force into their unsuspecting back
4. Let's face it the orcs/Isengarders were dispersed/scattered by the sudden two side attack from the unprotected back and the at that moment very unlikely sally, but who really devastated them were the Huorns!, not the Rohirrim...
I know i always tend to defend the orcs , but i am still not convinced they were all useless hack. The bad guys always lose as a rule... even the balchoth against the eotheod or the wainriders against gondor or gondor against gondor at the erui.
And we probably wouldn't say that easterlings or corsairs are per se weaklings... bevause we know they are men and not as a rule weaker or worse in battle than other men.
at the gladdenfields 2000 orcs,mostly lesser ones, managed to completely route out 200 númenorean elite... that's not all too bad!
I don't think tolkiens battles are THAT unrealistic in comparison to historic ones... a bit, yes, exaggerated because we often deal with superhumans... , but not complete nonsense.i mean look at historic field battles and sieges... You HAVE such crazy victories, they exist! And you still would never think of saying the persian immortals or the carthagians or the gauls are weak and worthless fighters who as a rule don't stand a chance against a roman legionaire or spartan 4 to one!
2. Not sure about the dunlendings at all, i think the entire host leaving isengard counts 10000 INCLUDING the Dunlendings.we also don't know how many of the orcs were snagas, half orcs and uruk-hai... the relations are unclear to me.
3. The orcs/Isengarders really were surprised because eomer could engage brutal full force into their unsuspecting back
4. Let's face it the orcs/Isengarders were dispersed/scattered by the sudden two side attack from the unprotected back and the at that moment very unlikely sally, but who really devastated them were the Huorns!, not the Rohirrim...
I know i always tend to defend the orcs , but i am still not convinced they were all useless hack. The bad guys always lose as a rule... even the balchoth against the eotheod or the wainriders against gondor or gondor against gondor at the erui.
And we probably wouldn't say that easterlings or corsairs are per se weaklings... bevause we know they are men and not as a rule weaker or worse in battle than other men.
at the gladdenfields 2000 orcs,mostly lesser ones, managed to completely route out 200 númenorean elite... that's not all too bad!
I don't think tolkiens battles are THAT unrealistic in comparison to historic ones... a bit, yes, exaggerated because we often deal with superhumans... , but not complete nonsense.i mean look at historic field battles and sieges... You HAVE such crazy victories, they exist! And you still would never think of saying the persian immortals or the carthagians or the gauls are weak and worthless fighters who as a rule don't stand a chance against a roman legionaire or spartan 4 to one!
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Agreed, as stated above. I also pointed the battle only starts to seem really hopeless once the main curtain is breached.
Merry is specifically talking about the Uruk-hai marching out of Isengard, and Gandalf specifies Orcs.
Are you talking about Erkenbrand here? Because Eomer's emerging from the caves was in front of Saruman's army from what I understand. The effectiveness of the surprise attack upon the Uruk-hai rear cannot be understated, as I pointed out above.
Again, we are perfect agreement. This is stated above as well.
So, given that this 10:1 ratio is Orcs vs. humans (given, probably amongst the best ever) in open combat would you say that 10:1 might not be enough for Orcs vs. Calaquendi?
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
We landed on a total of 5000, I think. I think that Rhiannon's breakdown works alright.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
There are more than one quote on the force leaving isengard in one the hobbits specifically mention half-orcs and normal humans...
I mean:
"He emptied Isengard. I saw the enemy go: endless lines of marching Orcs; and troops of them mounted on great wolves. And there were battalions of Men, too. Many of them carried torches, and in the flare I could see their faces. Most of them were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking. But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree: only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were.'"
Erkenbrand of course! I must have confused them because of that damn movie!
Tol sirion, other situation.the Orcs are maybe part simple war-slaves/force commited miners and workers but a large number should be well trained warriors too.we don't know the relation.they are however all extremely well equipped from the smithies of angband, commanded by demons, supported by werewolves, demons, trolls... all that is huge plus.
On the other hand:we have the elves, technically as strong ,fast and fit as the strongest humans, very well equipped by their own smiths as well as the dwarves, very well trained, everyone is a professional lehionaire/hoplite even those who are common workers/planters/craftsmen in daily life... plus they have seen the light of aman and have a strong good power supporting them, even if subtle.
So: hard to say.I won't compare all three battles.
I mean:
"He emptied Isengard. I saw the enemy go: endless lines of marching Orcs; and troops of them mounted on great wolves. And there were battalions of Men, too. Many of them carried torches, and in the flare I could see their faces. Most of them were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking. But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree: only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were.'"
Erkenbrand of course! I must have confused them because of that damn movie!
You know that is hard to say and That difficulty is what i am all about.I acknowledge that the gladden orcs are probably not the elite, not the best equipped, but they have among them a number of well trained, well equipped barad-dur orcs plus they have the surprise and an evil will driving them. The numenoreans are total elite and well equipped, but also only light equipped as they are equipped to travel not to battle.
Tol sirion, other situation.the Orcs are maybe part simple war-slaves/force commited miners and workers but a large number should be well trained warriors too.we don't know the relation.they are however all extremely well equipped from the smithies of angband, commanded by demons, supported by werewolves, demons, trolls... all that is huge plus.
On the other hand:we have the elves, technically as strong ,fast and fit as the strongest humans, very well equipped by their own smiths as well as the dwarves, very well trained, everyone is a professional lehionaire/hoplite even those who are common workers/planters/craftsmen in daily life... plus they have seen the light of aman and have a strong good power supporting them, even if subtle.
So: hard to say.I won't compare all three battles.
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Haerangil
Well-Known Member
On numbers:
I think even if there were a full population of 300.000 noldor in beleriand, a number that is high but not totally unrealistic, an army of 3000-6000 men is large for them, large but again not unrealistic.
5000 elves, 8000 angbandians, then another 12000 angbandians...
that would still be a HUGE and astonishing victory! Yet, those would be numbers not totally unbelievable in comparison to many historical battles... i think 5000 elves beating a total of 20000 orcs(including other creatures) is still REALLY good! Not totally out of realism, yet it does in no way diminish their heroism.
I think even if there were a full population of 300.000 noldor in beleriand, a number that is high but not totally unrealistic, an army of 3000-6000 men is large for them, large but again not unrealistic.
5000 elves, 8000 angbandians, then another 12000 angbandians...
that would still be a HUGE and astonishing victory! Yet, those would be numbers not totally unbelievable in comparison to many historical battles... i think 5000 elves beating a total of 20000 orcs(including other creatures) is still REALLY good! Not totally out of realism, yet it does in no way diminish their heroism.
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Ok so you’re not in agreement on the elven numbers. 3000-6000 (but landing on 3000) or 5000.
My 50 cents (or other insignificant amount of cash) is: I think Fingolfin leaving 500 behind with Aredhel sounds fair. He probably takes more, so at least 750. Let’s make it an even 1000. Hey let’s make that a standard elven army size. Let’s give Turgon an even 1000. Let’s give Finrod, Angrod and Maedhros 1000, plus 500 cavalrymen (Fëanoreans). That’s 6000. In the end though, I’ll of course settle for less, or more - it’s just a suggestion.
Remember though that few elves marry and have children, especially since there’s a war and a ban, so the numbers we decide on now will grow only a little over the years.
My 50 cents (or other insignificant amount of cash) is: I think Fingolfin leaving 500 behind with Aredhel sounds fair. He probably takes more, so at least 750. Let’s make it an even 1000. Hey let’s make that a standard elven army size. Let’s give Turgon an even 1000. Let’s give Finrod, Angrod and Maedhros 1000, plus 500 cavalrymen (Fëanoreans). That’s 6000. In the end though, I’ll of course settle for less, or more - it’s just a suggestion.
Remember though that few elves marry and have children, especially since there’s a war and a ban, so the numbers we decide on now will grow only a little over the years.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
The numbers will grow pretty high over the years; Turgon fields 10,000 at the Nirnaeth and I’m not certain if he had the largest host in the Union.
Ok. So, is that a Gondolin thing exclusively? Or do we see those numbers across the different elven camps?
If so, does that happen during the years before the Dagor Bragollach? If not, when?
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
I would think that the proportion of the population doing the fighting would increase as desperation rises.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Well, for one, I'd say that the percentage of Noldor that they can field as soldiers is much higher than that of a human population. They have no elderly who cannot serve, for one thing. Additionally women are not universally excluded. Lastly, the amount of people dedicated to provide food need not be nearly as high as among human people's.
Beyond that, I'd be ok with a 7:1 ratio.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
There’s 17 years between the Dagor Bragollach and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, so I don’t think that the increase is across all camps, particularly in Dor-Lomin where there is a plague in F.A. 469 (even so they fielded their entire fighting force and died to a single man; I consider that very foolish as future events show). However, with Gondolin where they are relatively isolated from the Siege and in Doriath as well, there could be an increase.
The Wikipedia article on the Nirnaeth has estimates of numbers from Mythlore.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Well one could think they could field far larger numbers, however i am not sure... as i said their numbers increase slowly.Their general population really consists of NO old people i agree , and very few children... so the bulk of population COULD fight, in theory, for some time, except that still people need to grow food.But these would be Lmost inexpandable... once their dead, they will not be able to be replaced with a new generation for millenia.
Maybe they could have fielded a larger army... had they had more time to prepare... , but would they have really wanted to?
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Well Gondolin is probably one of the few places where they increase in number because they are technically not in war, so they marry and sire children...
But i don't see that happening for Dorthonion, Maedhros March, Hithlum..
Oh yeah, i forgot... i don't criticize just for the sake of it, i just hope to,get a good discussion for us all to get a more precise and realistic picture. All in all i am generally okay with a general 4-1,5-1,6-1,7-1 ratio even 10-1... as it always depends on the battle situation, commander, terrain.. a lot of things...
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Haerangil
Well-Known Member
The script is really cool! I have to say i enjoy silmfilm a lot more again now that we have real dialogues and more detailed descriptions of scenes!
Just two small points of criticism: I think we had proposed renaming Salgant as Talagand, because thatvwas jrrts latest version of that name... i also cannot get about the flying balrog, the balrog dialogue is REALL goofy... you did that to tease the execs a bit, yes ?
Just two small points of criticism: I think we had proposed renaming Salgant as Talagand, because thatvwas jrrts latest version of that name... i also cannot get about the flying balrog, the balrog dialogue is REALL goofy... you did that to tease the execs a bit, yes ?