Script Discussion S05E04

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Ok, we have some time before this one. Contrary to popular belief (mine), this will be on December 6th @ 8:30 PM Eastern.

We are introducing a new cadre of human characters here, as the people of Haleth emerge in the Stockade Battle.

We are also going to get Eöl and Aredhel travelling in this episode, and the establishment of Sauron's new mole program.

Some details I'd like to work out before our discussion:

Do we relocate the Stockade Battle?

(More to come)
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
If we want to relocate the Stockade Battle, how far back can we conceivably push it?

Also, this is where I wanted to place my prospective Sauron as Arnold Friend scene (don't see any other place it could fit).
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Ok, we have some time before this one. Contrary to popular belief (mine), this will be on December 6th @ 8:30 PM Eastern.

We are introducing a new cadre of human characters here, as the people of Haleth emerge in the Stockade Battle.

We are also going to get Eöl and Aredhel travelling in this episode, and the establishment of Sauron's new mole program.

Some details I'd like to work out before our discussion:

Do we relocate the Stockade Battle?

(More to come)
Ok, when I say, do we want to relocate the stockade battle, I mean literally. On the map. Because as has been discussed, it is pretty far behind the lines of the Noldor, and would be a pretty difficult target to hit.

Also, this is where I wanted to place my prospective Sauron as Arnold Friend scene (don't see any other place it could fit).
Given that Sauron will be working on Elves who are currently held in Angband, I'm not sure how that would work. Wouldn't that work better for Amlach?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Ok, when I say, do we want to relocate the stockade battle, I mean literally. On the map. Because as has been discussed, it is pretty far behind the lines of the Noldor, and would be a pretty difficult target to hit.



Given that Sauron will be working on Elves who are currently held in Angband, I'm not sure how that would work. Wouldn't that work better for Amlach?
Well, it was going to be connected with Amlach, more of an early indicator of what was to come, kinda like the stinger in a MCU film. I just wanted something to indicate that the Amlach incident was more than just a onetime thing, even serial.
My Note for the Host, #12
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So how would that worth within Angband?
By the scene I had in mind Sauron and his crew have already left Angband to make the House of Hador get lost. I thought the idea was that Sauron would be leaving Angband and put his spell on Annael on his way out. On his way to Estolad he bumps into Boldog, fresh off his unsuccessful offensive against the Haladin in East Beleriand. Boldog divulges that either Gothmog or Morgoth (it could seriously be either) had ordered the assault. By the end of the episode, Sauron and his crew would already be in Estolad and he'd enact his schemes there.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
By the scene I had in mind Sauron and his crew have already left Angband to make the House of Hador get lost. I thought the idea was that Sauron would be leaving Angband and put his spell on Annael on his way out. On his way to Estolad he bumps into Boldog, fresh off his unsuccessful offensive against the Haladin in East Beleriand. Boldog divulges that either Gothmog or Morgoth (it could seriously be either) had ordered the assault. By the end of the episode, Sauron and his crew would already be in Estolad and he'd enact his schemes there.
So, there are a few issues here:

1) Placing the Annael plot near the beginning part of the episode kind of sidelines it, minimizing the importance of that event.

2) Boldog will not be returning from the stockade battle until it is over, effectively the final few moments of the episode. Not much time for another whole escapade for Sauron afterwards.

3) Sauron and Boldog *bumping* into each other in the vast stretches of Beleriand kind of stretches credulity.

4) The House of Hador has not really arrived yet.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So, there are a few issues here:

1) Placing the Annael plot near the beginning part of the episode kind of sidelines it, minimizing the importance of that event.

2) Boldog will not be returning from the stockade battle until it is over, effectively the final few moments of the episode. Not much time for another whole escapade for Sauron afterwards.

3) Sauron and Boldog *bumping* into each other in the vast stretches of Beleriand kind of stretches credulity.

4) The House of Hador has not really arrived yet.
2 and 3: How is Sauron supposed to know about the botched assault if he doesn’t hear it from Boldog?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Ok, when I say, do we want to relocate the stockade battle, I mean literally. On the map. Because as has been discussed, it is pretty far behind the lines of the Noldor, and would be a pretty difficult target to hit.
I don't see any reason to physically relocate the stockade battle. The bad guys are trying a new tactical approach, going around the lines of the Noldor rather than through them, and sneaking back over Ered Luin to the south in order to strike at Men - the soft underbelly of the defenses in Boldog's mind.

The current location of the stockade battle gives us a reason why Boldog's army is not immediately beset by Caranthir's forces while also not making the Feanorians seem lax in their defenses. Moreover, there's another element of it that I think can serve our story: "[the Orc-raid] came in stealth back over Ered Lindon by the passes of the Dwarf-road." We've shown the Feanorians trying to get the Dwarves to help out with the leaguer, and this raid can be proof of why they're needed. If the Dwarves had been guarding the passes of their own road, Orcs would not have gotten into Beleriand.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Moreover, there's another element of it that I think can serve our story: "[the Orc-raid] came in stealth back over Ered Lindon by the passes of the Dwarf-road." We've shown the Feanorians trying to get the Dwarves to help out with the leaguer, and this raid can be proof of why they're needed. If the Dwarves had been guarding the passes of their own road, Orcs would not have gotten into Beleriand.
So, one thing I want to be careful of concerning the dwarves is not to signal to the audience that they'll be coming to rescue the Elves in the DB. Nor do I want to signal that the disaster is the dwarves' fault. I'm not saying this is necessarily the way that would go, just that it will take a great deal of care and subtlety to avoid.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The House of Hador, and their relationship with Elves, is a topic for Episode 5, not Episode 4. Please keep the Season Outline in mind when making suggestions.

The decision was made to have the orc attack happen across the Blue Mountains rather than through the Fëanorean line. I agree that we need to be careful about how we handle the dwarf portion of this story, but recall that Aredhel and Eöl's walkabout during this episode will allow us to give some nuance to the dwarvish position, if we need it.

Nick, where were you thinking the Stockade ought to be located?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Question: is it the Gelion-Ascar Stockade that Elves decide that Men aren’t just useless?
That is certainly when Caranthir makes that determination. I don't think there is anything resembling consensus on the subject that exists either before or after the event.
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Nick, where were you thinking the Stockade ought to be located?
There seems to be a vale that passes through Ered Luin north of Mount Rerir. The source of the Greater Gelion. It is definitely behind the main lines of the siege, but doesn't require such a long journey outside the sheltering clouds of darkness. It also doesn't leave us asking questions as to why the dwarves didn't do anything about the Orcs passing through their territory.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
There seems to be a vale that passes through Ered Luin north of Mount Rerir. The source of the Greater Gelion. It is definitely behind the main lines of the siege, but doesn't require such a long journey outside the sheltering clouds of darkness. It also doesn't leave us asking questions as to why the dwarves didn't do anything about the Orcs passing through their territory.
How would this look on a map?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Here is the portion of the map of Beleriand that is relevant to this discussion:

1606680415110.png

The original placement of the Stockade is at the junction of the rivers Gelion and Ascar, in southwestern Thargelion.

By suggesting a location closer to Mount Rerir at the source of the River Gelion, Nick is suggesting relocating it to the front lines. Boldog could still cross the Ered Luin to get at it, but it would be much further north.

Recall that, in our story, there is a dwarf road by Keep Helevorn, which is on the southern slope of Mount Rerir. So, dwarf-implications would not be eliminated if we relocated the stockade to here...though Caranthir's vigilance would be called into question if the attack were immediately in his front yard, and he waited to respond long enough that they were in a siege situation.

I do agree that we have an issue with 'clouds of darkness' extending this far. I would suggest having zero trolls in Boldog's army; the chances of sunlight turning them to stone is too high. The orc army could march only at night, and hide during the day. Not an ideal solution, but perhaps a feasible one.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Here is the portion of the map of Beleriand that is relevant to this discussion:

View attachment 3242

The original placement of the Stockade is at the junction of the rivers Gelion and Ascar, in southwestern Thargelion.

By suggesting a location closer to Mount Rerir at the source of the River Gelion, Nick is suggesting relocating it to the front lines. Boldog could still cross the Ered Luin to get at it, but it would be much further north.

Recall that, in our story, there is a dwarf road by Keep Helevorn, which is on the southern slope of Mount Rerir. So, dwarf-implications would not be eliminated if we relocated the stockade to here...though Caranthir's vigilance would be called into question if the attack were immediately in his front yard, and he waited to respond long enough that they were in a siege situation.

I do agree that we have an issue with 'clouds of darkness' extending this far. I would suggest having zero trolls in Boldog's army; the chances of sunlight turning them to stone is too high. The orc army could march only at night, and hide during the day. Not an ideal solution, but perhaps a feasible one.
How long in real time do we think the assault lasts? Because if it's only a day or two, Caranthir's arrival is not an issue.
 
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