Script Discussion S06E04

Is there a Script Discussion S06E05 thread anywhere? Is it not due to be discussed on the 10th of June? Should we not already have started to find problems to be creatively resolved by our scriptwriting crew next week? ;)
 
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Way back during the script discussion for this episode there was a conversation based around trying to tie in elements from JRR and Edith's relationship in this episode. I've had a shot in my head based off of the talking to each other from seperate floors story, where Beren is sitting at the base of a tree with his back to the trunk, and Luthien is sitting on the branch above his head as they talk. Could be a fun little easter egg.

Just putting the idea out into the Ether in case anyone wants to bring it in from the cold and give it a nice warm hot chocolate.
 
What do we have on how Beren and Lúthien are attracted to each other? Lúthien, who could have had anyone she wanted, goes for someone who her father would disapprove of right off the bat. I really started to think about this after a couple times watching Julian Fellowes costume dramas, where a number of romances are unequal pairings owing to social class.

Example 1: In Downton Abbey, the Earl of Grantham hires a new chauffeur in Season 1 named Tom Branson. Branson becomes attracted to Sybil, the Earl's youngest daughter (played by our own Jessica Brown Findlay). Tom has a number of things that the Earl would find unsuitable: he's Irish and has socialist political leanings, not to mention being a chauffeur and therefore a servant. However, the two of them bond over politics, Sybil is a suffragist and Tom encourages her to do more, which occasionally gets her into trouble (like getting injured in a brawl during a vote-counting). Sybil becomes a nurse during World War I while Branson stays at Downton, being unable to fight due to a heart murmur. Branson has been in love with Sybil from the start, while Sybil's affections are much more discreet, but increasing throughout Season 2 as she no longer wishes to go back to the idle life she led before the war. Tom and Sybil elope and marry in Ireland, albeit with Robert's very reluctant blessing (he doesn't attend the wedding). Sybil and Tom at first lead a simple life with him as a reporter and she as a nurse, but are forced to return to England when Tom participates in the burning of a castle. Sybil gives birth to a daughter later named Sybbie... and then dies of eclampsia.

Example 2: In Belgravia, the story revolves around Charles Pope, a young businessman whose origins are clouded in mystery: he's the illegitimate son of the late Viscount Edmund Bellasis (heir to the Earldom of Brockenhurst) and Sophia Trenchard, the daughter of victualler and builder James Trenchard. Charles is invited to an at-home hosted by his grandmother the Countess of Brockenhurst (who learned of him through James' wife Anne), where he meets Lady Maria Grey, a young noblewoman, the daughter of a deceased Earl. The two of them bond over their mutual interest in India; Maria's uncle was governor there at one point while Charles intends to do business there by engaging in the cotton trade to supply his mill; Maria suggests he visit the Taj Mahal. However, Maria is engaged to John Bellasis, Lady Brockenhurst's philandering and vain nephew and her mother Lady Templemore is pushing the match so she can spend her remaining years in comfort. In any case, because Charles is a businessman and a bastard Lady Templemore would be unwilling to give him the time of day even if Maria were unattached.
 
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Ange1e4e5 said:
What do we have on how Beren and Lúthien are attracted to each other? Lúthien, who could have had anyone she wanted, goes for someone who her father would disapprove of right off the bat. I really started to think about this after a couple times watching Julian Fellowes costume dramas, where a number of romances are unequal pairings owing to social class.
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You have few marriages across social class barriers in Tolkien. You can have some across the "species" barrier, but both partners are their respective class in their respective community.

The only exception is - as far I remember - the Mariner's Wife and this marriage starts the development that brings about the downfall of Numenor.

Remember that Luthien is an elf and as such she has no "life-goals" except simply being alive - being herself - which she did succesfully for millenia already. She has no pressure to acomplish or to become something "before she dies" because she is lacking exactly this very "dead-line". As such they cannot really bond over shared "life-goals".

While humans struggle to become what they should be (or "are meant to be") elves start out there already and their only struggle is to stay true to what they already were.

Had Luthien had any ambition to become more than she is, this would be suspect - this exactly how Melkor and Mairon or Maeglin started out. For her it can really be simply infatuation (born of curiosity and a genuine fascination with the freshness of "something else" than herself) as elves do not get bored easily and are usualy constant in their feelings once they have committed - or something is very wrong with them.

From Beren's side it is a little more complicated - true, Luthien is mesmerising and ever-young and has no mortal woman's failings. Still humans do get bored with anything after a while - even with perfection.
Also Beren's motivation seems to be in big part to prove his own male worth to Thingol and to defend his own honour and that of his house. And Beren does not really live long enough after first meeting Luthien for his infatuation really to start to wear of as yet (merely for 2 years from when he meets her to when he dies the 1st time - which is short enough for a human to be still in the infatuation state).
And afterwards he gets reembodied and forbidden from meeting any other mortal - so he is no longer has any alternatives there - as no other elleth would take him anyway - so in whatever direction his feelings might have developed, he has to stick with it - which he also is honour-bond to do.

[My aversion and opposition to forcing elves into a human-like life-goals' framework has been only strengthened by the effect it recently had in RoP. If you want to force Luthien into it, then do it please after her reembodiment - there at least it would make some sense.)
 
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I think the key thing to take away from these examples is how disapproving relatives react when young people fall in love with someone they shouldn't.

As for what Beren and Lúthien see in one another, we have of course discussed that a great deal. And it will no doubt come up again in Thursday's podcast when we discuss Episode 4.
 
Odola said:
You have few marriages across social class barriers in Tolkien. You can have some across the "species" barrier, but both partners are their respective class in their respective community.

The only exception is - as far I remember - the Mariner's Wife and this marriage starts the development that brings about the downfall of Numenor.

Remember that Luthien is an elf and as such she has no "life-goals" except simply being alive - being herself - which she did succesfully for millenia already. She has no pressure to acomplish or to become something "before she dies" because she is lacking exactly this very "dead-line". As such they cannot really bond over shared "life-goals".

While humans struggle to become what they should be (or "are meant to be") elves start out there already and their only struggle is to stay true to what they already were.

Had Luthien had any ambition to become more than she is, this would be suspect - this exactly how Melkor and Mairon or Maeglin started out. For her it can really be simply infatuation (born of curiosity and a genuine fascination with the freshness of "something else" than herself) as elves do not get bored easily and are usualy constant in their feelings once they have committed - or something is very wrong with them.

From Beren's side it is a little more complicated - true, Luthien is mesmerising and ever-young and has no mortal woman's failings. Still humans do get bored with anything after a while - even with perfection.
Also Beren's motivation seems to be in big part to prove his own male worth to Thingol and to defend his own honour and that of his house. And Beren does not really live long enough after first meeting Luthien for his infatuation really to start to wear of as yet.
And afterwards he gets reembodied and forbidden from meeting any other mortal - so he is no longer has any alternatives there - as no other elleth would take him anyway - so in whatever direction his feelings might have developed, he has to stick with it - which he also is honour-bond to do.

[My aversion and opposition to forcing elves into a human-like life-goals' framework has been only strengthened by the effect it recently had in RoP. If you want to force Luthien into it, then do it please after her reembodiment - there at least it would make some sense.)
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Life goals like, say, regaining the Silmarils, taking revenge on Morgoth, carving out a realm for one's self,
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Life goals like, say, regaining the Silmarils, taking revenge on Morgoth, carving out a realm for one's self,
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The first two ones are just attempts to remedy the loss of a previously present now lost state from the past as such they are just reactions to circumstances and not real live goals (say more: "very adverse reaction to the loss of a past status quo" - elves are renown for taking changes badly)- and while that last one clearly is a live-goal it is shown as being suspect and strange from the very beginning and it needs to be given up in the end for the person concerned to be able to remain herself... ;)

“From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her goodwill from none save only Fëanor. In him she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and upon her own.”

We know the "Unrest of the Noldor" was an effect of Morgoth's influence and not something completely natural.
 
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MithLuin said:
I think the key thing to take away from these examples is how disapproving relatives react when young people fall in love with someone they shouldn't.

As for what Beren and Lúthien see in one another, we have of course discussed that a great deal. And it will no doubt come up again in Thursday's podcast when we discuss Episode 4.
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Yes, that was the main point I was trying to get across. The other one is that the presence of the lower-tier men changes the perspectives of the ladies they become involved in; in Lúthien's case she does become more dedicated to a single cause: Beren. There's also the fact that there is usually some form of mutual attraction between these unequal pairs, a topic that draws them closer, particularly in cases where the two social circles wouldn't typically intermingle.

There's actually a scene in Belgravia that makes me think of Beren and Lúthien for the imagery, when Maria decides to elope with Charles and he takes her to Lady Brockenhurst for advice. Lady Templemore is there and she confronts Charles, attempting to scare him away from Maria.

Lady Templemore: Mr. Pope.
Charles: Lady Templemore, good afternoon.
Lady Templemore: I might have known you'd be involved.
Charles: Involved in what?
Lady Templemore: I saw you come in together. So don't lie to me.
Charles: I won't. I saw her in Hatchards, she was distressed, and so I brought her here. Maria and I-
Lady Templemore: -Lady Maria.
Charles: Lady Maria and I-
Lady Templemore: Mr. Pope, there is no 'Lady Maria and I'. It is an absurd concept. My daughter is a jewel, as far above you as the stars. For your own sake, as much as for hers, forget her. If you have a shred of honour in you.

 
We have made Lúthien a 'tra-la-la-lally' elf. So while this doesn't mean she's going to fiddle while Rome burns or anything like that, it does mean that she considers hope and art to be Capital Letter things and that her role as princess of Doriath is all about preserving the Hope of her people through Art (singing and dancing). Her encounter with Beren begins with an attempt to heal him (as he is obviously distressed and passed out upon entering Doriath). It progresses to studying him (what a fascinating mortal this is!) and progresses to loving him (she wants to spend time with him, and does so).

From his perspective, a beautiful elf maiden has entered his life, healed his wounds, returned joy and hope to him, and responded to him the way no one else ever has. He's smitten, to say the least.

So what do they have in common? Beren is vegetarian. Barahir's outlaws were not vegetarian. And so...he is used to this being seen as a weird perspective. Lúthien, on the other hand, appreciates that Beren is a friend to animals, and admires this about him. Sharing a vegetarian meal together is something they would both enjoy. Beren knows Dorthonion very well, and can speak of that land that is outside the Girdle of Melian. Lúthien has not traveled much in Beleriand since the Girdle went up. (She has been to Nargothrond once in Silm Film, and to the Mereth Aderthad). Lúthien's memory stretches back to before the first sunrise, so she can speak of things that Beren would not know as well. So, there is a...not so much sharing of news, but sharing of experience, where the perspectives of the other person are valued.
 
MithLuin said:
So what do they have in common? Beren is vegetarian. Barahir's outlaws were not vegetarian. And so...he is used to this being seen as a weird perspective. Lúthien, on the other hand, appreciates that Beren is a friend to animals, and admires this about him. Sharing a vegetarian meal together is something they would both enjoy. Beren knows Dorthonion very well, and can speak of that land that is outside the Girdle of Melian. Lúthien has not traveled much in Beleriand since the Girdle went up. (She has been to Nargothrond once in Silm Film, and to the Mereth Aderthad). Lúthien's memory stretches back to before the first sunrise, so she can speak of things that Beren would not know as well. So, there is a...not so much sharing of news, but sharing of experience, where the perspectives of the other person are valued.
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I like this. It feels organic
 
The titles for Lúthien could prefigure things she does later, but here it sounds like she's making up silly things: Tree-climber, Hair-grower, Lullaby-singer.

It a trope (and maybe a super tired one!), but the hand-in-hand moment could signal a transition on Lúthien's part from "this is an interesting pet project/this guy's fun to spend time with" to "I think I'm in love", as part of the dance teaching.
 
Did we yet solve the problem why the elves do never get aware of that lone human running around Doriath? Do they know their own country that bad? I could see Melian actively looking away secretly , but there ought to be elves living in these woods...
Or does Luthien use her magic to shield her playfellow? Does Thingol ever adress that when it comes to the confrontation on court?
 
We are implying that Melian is keeping her own counsel and keeping her opinions to herself. So, yes, she is well aware that a mortal man has crossed the Girdle, and she makes cryptic remarks to Thingol about it. So the audience can conclude that she knows more than she says or lets on.

We do show Lúthien & Daeron watching Beren without his knowledge from their blind. So...it is possible that they are keeping other elves away, but we were not planning to show that I don't think.

Thingol's surprise at the confrontation in court should be fairly total. Obviously, he does not know Lúthien is in love with Beren. But it should be the case that he was unaware that a mortal human has entered Doriath so his surprise and upset are very in the moment reactions.
 
Haerangil said:
Did we yet solve the problem why the elves do never get aware of that lone human running around Doriath? Do they know their own country that bad? I could see Melian actively looking away secretly , but there ought to be elves living in these woods...
Or does Luthien use her magic to shield her playfellow? Does Thingol ever adress that when it comes to the confrontation on court?
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Also, Doriath is a big place. One which has a magical barrier no enemy can cross. If they had a population of millions, sure, I can see an issue. But that one person crossed an impenetrable barrier from a direction no one has ever come and the Elves don't know about it? I don't have a problem with it.
 
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