Script Discussion S06E04

Some musings on Sindarin Chess (ChesSind?):

Name could be something like "Game of Kings" translated into Sindarin.

12x12 board? I recall a misconception being spread through the conlanging community that "Elvish uses base 12" but I don't believe this is corroborated in Tolkien's works as far as I've read, but it serves to differentiate it. I think an odd numbered board side is decidedly un-Elvish.

Depending on history, ChesSind is one of the following:
If it originated near the Awakening: Not a war game. Probably an area defense game? Map looks something like Cuivienen (terrain features do occur in actual games in the chess family such as Xiangqi).
Along the journey to Valinor: Could conceivably be a war game. Maybe based on the War of the Powers? I expect that theme would have fallen out of favor by the time of the Rising of the Sun.
After the sleep of Elwe: Could be a war game or a game of courtly politics?
During the first wars with Morgoth: Probably a war game.
After the arrival of the Noldor: Probably a war game, but almost certainly not about the war with Morgoth.


I'll try to go back and find its first appearance on SilmFilm.
 
Season 4 Episode 3 is the first time that Thingol and Mablung's game appears in the script outlines (ie, that script discussion is when we invented it). We envisioned it as a game with pieces to move around a board, I think. Of course, one of the reasons we felt the need to use that was that quite a few scenes in Season 3 were 'Celeborn/Círdan/Mablung/Beleg reports news to Thingol' and it was time to add some context and interest to such scenes.

So, I would not be opposed to the game making an appearance among Thingol's people in Season 3, but it definitely exists after the sun rises on Menegroth.

As for the base 12 thing, they also use base 10, but do use base 12. For instance, yeni (translated as 'long years' in Galadriel's Namárië poem) means 144 years, so a base 12 century (essentially). So 12 can be a significant number for them.
 
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As for the base 12 thing, they also use base 10, but do use base 12. For instance, yeni (translated as 'long years' in Galadriel's Namárië poem) means 144 years, so a base 12 century (essentially). So 12 can be a significant number for them.

According to NoME it is. 10 is the base to count for elvish children (because of the fingers) - as such all elves do know it - but "adult elvish math" is done in 12.
 
According to NoME it is. 10 is the base to count for elvish children (because of the fingers) - as such all elves do know it - but "adult elvish math" is done in 12.
Good to know. I hang out in the circles where math and counting crosses language and worldbuilding and I had kind of always assumed it was a misconception.
 
Here is where the idea first arose:

Nick: They could be playing a board game! [Earlier in this session, we had mused over what Galadriel and Lúthien were doing in another scene, and Nick had somewhat jokingly suggested they be playing a board game, such as backgammon.]
Marie: Okay, fine. Do elves have chess?​
Nick: A chess-like game.​
Marie: Ok, if it were anime, it would be shogi, so do elves have...​
Nick: There's a game they play in Vikings, there's a particular Norse game that you see them playing.​
Marie: Skittles?​
Nick: Might be.​
Marie: I've never seen Vikings.​
Nick: It is pawns on a board....​
Marie: I think it's called Skittles. Wait, no it's not. What is it called? Because Skittles is more like bowling, maybe? No.​
Marie: Nine Men's Morris?​
Nick: Tafl​
Marie: Tafl​
Nick: Yep, that's it, that's the one. I've seen this. Okay.​
Marie: Yeah, yeah, that's Norse.​
Nick: Yeah, and Celtic, also. So something like that works, yeah, sure.​
Marie: Alright, so, they're playing an elvish game...​
Nick: But I kinda like the idea of it being pawns on a board. I don't care what all it looks like.​
Marie: Yeah. It could be 3D chess from Star Trek!​
Nick: Some production designer can figure out what that looks like.​
Marie: So they're playing a game, with figures on a board, and...is it Mablung or Beleg? Does it matter to you?​
Nick: I feel like Mablung is the guy.​
.​
.{actual plot of the episode}​
.​
Nick: So the way you do this, with board game scenes like this, is you have the character who is explaining strategy, and how sometimes you have to make sure you're in the correct position, and *boop* checkmate, you see? Or, you can turn it on its head, and have the person who is advocating for a more direct kind of approach win the game despite...because they did something that the 'chessmaster' character never considered was an option.​
Marie: Yeah, yeah. So there's...​
Nick: The question is, how tropey do we want to be?​
Marie: Well, since the game is whatever we make it, the rules are whatever we make it, I don't think we need to go too chessmaster-y because it's not going to be a chess game. And the difference between Mablung and Thingol...they're not opponents. Like a lot of times, the reason you do a tense game situation like that is to have two people who would not otherwise be getting along duking it out over this chessboard.​
Nick: Or a teach your student moment, like a teacher/student dynamic.​
Marie: Right, right.​
.​
.{Criminal Minds tangent}​
.​
Nick: So the point is, there's this older guy and this younger guy, and he's constantly teaching him life lessons through the play of this chess game.​
Marie: The dynamic between Thingol and Mablung should be that Mablung is very reliable, constant companion of Thingol's ever since the journey from Cuivienen, and that he kinda relies on him a bit, and that Mablung has been someone he can hand things off to. So the whole dwarf situation with Norn, Mablung kinda...did that.​
Nick: handled it.​
Marie: Yeah. Exactly. So Thingol's used to just being like, 'Okay, Mablung!' and then not worrying about it. Same with Beleg and same with Celeborn - Thingol delegates to these people. So that's the dynamic. So a friendly game of whatever is honestly just them enjoying each other's company and spending time together, I think.​
Nick: Okay.​


An example of a tafl board:
1653780703338.png

Nine Men's Morris:
1653780797133.png

And while I did not suggest it at the time, there is always the stone-counting game Mancala (if we want inspiration for the rules of our totally-not-actually-tafl elvish game):

1653781162199.png

Terrace:
(Unlike 3-D chess, this one has reasonable rules and is a game you can actually play; it's from Star Trek: The Next Generation)
1653784021776.png
 
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As for Game of Kings....I don't think there is a Sindarin word for game?

There is at least a verb for play:
telia- "play" (stem TYAL)

'king' is much easier
In Sindarin, 'king' is aran (or less-commonly shortened âr) and 'kings' is erain (except in compounds like Ereinion)
There is also the word taur "king, master"
In Telerin, it would be:
aran "king" or aráta "noble"
I don't think we have the Doriathrin version? But nevertheless it's still aran, because of Thingol's sword, Aranruth.
 
Guys, I'm just coming from catching up with the script discussion from yesterday and the part in Act 1 where the "music of the pipe unseen" came up, what if-

Beren basically comes stumbling as he listens to the music like it is heard from a distance, so it keeps growing slightly louder and louder till he sees luthien and then it just almost stops. Like if the volume goes from 75 to 10, almost. So technically Daeron is there, but to Beren, it's inconsequential. All his eyes are drawn to once he sees her is Luthien. So he comes chasings the music and singing, but on seeing her, the music is lost lost to him. He is too busy drinking in the sight.
 
As for Game of Kings....I don't think there is a Sindarin word for game?

There is at least a verb for play:
telia- "play" (stem TYAL)

'king' is much easier
In Sindarin, 'king' is aran (or less-commonly shortened âr) and 'kings' is erain (except in compounds like Ereinion)
There is also the word taur "king, master"
In Telerin, it would be:
aran "king" or aráta "noble"
I don't think we have the Doriathrin version? But nevertheless it's still aran, because of Thingol's sword, Aranruth.

Aranath, kings?
 
There certainly are many wild animals in Doriath...

Wild pigs though afe dangerous, i'd stay away from them if i was a sane person.
 
They are! Yet everybody stays away from them if possible because everybody fears the return of the mother...

I know many humans raise and care for wild animals, especially the babies, but realistically... what can a single human without a steady home do.Beren does not have any lifestock animals, so no milk for example. When people show me a scene in which Beren cares for baby wild pigs i ask myself "allright, how so, would this actually work or is he just stupid?"
 
They are! Yet everybody stays away from them if possible because everybody fears the return of the mother...

I know many humans raise and care for wild animals, especially the babies, but realistically... what can a single human without a steady home do.Beren does not have any lifestock animals, so no milk for example. When people show me a scene in which Beren cares for baby wild pigs i ask myself "allright, how so, would this actually work or is he just stupid?"

Wild boars (and domesticated pigs also) just love beechmast. So there would be plenty of them in Neldoreth. Wild boars are weaned when about 3 months but stay with their mothers for ten months.

A four month old squeaker is weaned already but still not self-reliable:

 
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The outline calls for Beren to help an animal in need. Something that is caught, perhaps, and needs help getting untangled. Or drowning. Or has an injured foot. Etc. He's not adopting a pet! He's just helping it out and sending it on its way.

The reason a wild pig was suggested was on account of them being edible. Lúthien is meant to deduce that he is vegetarian by observation of his habits, and we know the 'friends of birds and beasts' thing impresses her. So, there was an attempt to combine all of that in this scene.
 
The outline calls for Beren to help an animal in need. Something that is caught, perhaps, and needs help getting untangled. Or drowning. Or has an injured foot. Etc. He's not adopting a pet! He's just helping it out and sending it on its way.

The reason a wild pig was suggested was on account of them being edible. Lúthien is meant to deduce that he is vegetarian by observation of his habits, and we know the 'friends of birds and beasts' thing impresses her. So, there was an attempt to combine all of that in this scene.

A young wild boar of 4-5 months should be fine for eating and as they are born in sping usually, so it should be around summer again. And they do love beechnuts, so they should be plenty in a beech forest.
 
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Personally I like the idea of a deer better. I feel as though in this scene we're illustrating Berens gentleness. Cos we've seen tough Beren a bunch. Luthien has probably heard about the brashness, and harshness of Men from Thingol. This is showing his gentleness. Something she wouldn't expect from a man when the creature he's interacting with is helpless.
I feel like the cuter the better in this instance. IMO.
 
Personally I like the idea of a deer better. I feel as though in this scene we're illustrating Berens gentleness. Cos we've seen tough Beren a bunch. Luthien has probably heard about the brashness, and harshness of Men from Thingol. This is showing his gentleness. Something she wouldn't expect from a man when the creature he's interacting with is helpless.
I feel like the cuter the better in this instance. IMO.

I actually was leaning against the cuteness of the creature. The cuter the creature, the less impressive it is that Beren would help them. Anyone would help an adorable baby deer. But something ugly and typically antagonistic? That's another deal entirely.
 
I actually was leaning against the cuteness of the creature. The cuter the creature, the less impressive it is that Beren would help them. Anyone would help an adorable baby deer. But something ugly and typically antagonistic? That's another deal entirely.
I can see that. The advantage to a harsher more antagonistic animal in my mind would be to see the animal visibly calm at his presence. Like as if it's instinct would be to defend itself and attack him, but it is soothed by Beren.

I was just thinking of the stuffed baby deer toys we would be able to sell. Think of the royalties!
 
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