Script Discussion S06E05

Nicholas Palazzo

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Ok, we made it through the bottle episode. We will be rejoining the Nargothrond plot in this one as Beren pleads his case. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Luthien gets imprisoned in a tree.

The session is planned for 10JUN22 @ 8ET.
 
Questions:

1. How and why does Beren decide to head for Norgothrond - in the texts he just sees the hills in the South - but viewing the maps he would need trully elvish sight to do this. Does Gil-Galad accompany him?

2. Beren needs to take the Bow of Bregor with him or he leaves it with Doiath - but the latter decisson would result in it being lost in the Sacking of Doriath as I highly doubt a 3-8 old Elwing would take it with her. So I do propose for Beren to have it restrung in Doriath and to take it to Norgothrond to leave it there in Orodreth's keeeping when Beren leaves with Finrod for former Tol Sirion - maybe hanging on a wall mostly overlooked in the same room with the Nauglamir - later to be returned to adult Elwing or directly to Elros.

3. Does Luthien send Daeron to fetch the spinning wheel from Melian after Luthien notices her spindle is not fast enough for her needs?

4. How does she convince a musician to make her a loom? - Actualy a standing loom and a lyre are not so far apart in construction - a sprang loom or a small tapestry loom looks very much akin a simple lyre - just remove the sound body from the bottom. But she does need a standing loom for a mantle - not for a simple hairnet - so there is some size difference to account for.

5. How much of the spinning and weaving do we show? For dramatic purposes - even if compeletly unpractical - it would be nice to have her spin the hair stright from her head and then cut her hair after she is done spinning.

6. How short does she cut it? How long does it take for it to grow back? In most images her hair seem to grow back quite quickly. How long has she short hair in our story?

[7. What happens ultimately to Luthien's shadow cloak? Does she leave it in Tol Sirion when she takes Thuringswethil's? It is a very strongly magical item - potentially of great magical value. Does Sauron keep it as a souvenir? Does he still have it in Barad-dûr in the 3d Age in some king of trophy "heirloom chest"?]
 
7. Lúthien has her shadow cloak when she dances for Morgoth, as this is what she uses to put the court of Angband to sleep (along with her singing, of course).

As for the other issues you raise, it may be impractical to get a large loom into the treehouse prison. Perhaps she felts or crochets the cloak, rather than making it from woven fabric.
 
1. Why Nargothrond? He may have been present for the pledge of friendship between his father and Finrod. How he gets there is a matter of the Guarded Plain; the Elves of Nargothrond would see him coming, they intercept him, he shows them the Ring of Barahir and requests to be taken to Finrod.
 
Yes, Beren was part of the group that rescued Finrod, and was present when Finrod made the pledge to Barahir.

We know from the text that Beren exits Doriath at the point of Aelin-Uial in the southwest corner, crossing the river Sirion by boat and setting off towards the highlands around Nargothrond. We will want to get him to Nargothrond quickly, though. The Nargothrond story cannot begin until he arrives, and we will want that to happen in Act 1.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
1. Why Nargothrond? He may have been present for the pledge of friendship between his father and Finrod. How he gets there is a matter of the Guarded Plain; the Elves of Nargothrond would see him coming, they intercept him, he shows them the Ring of Barahir and requests to be taken to Finrod.
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Yes, but it is in the opposite direction to Angband and not simply walking distance. He has to be aware where it is and that he can find it.

MithLuin said:
7. Lúthien has her shadow cloak when she dances for Morgoth, as this is what she uses to put the court of Angband to sleep (along with her singing, of course).
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Ok. So she has one mantle over the other? What does happen to it afterwards? Does she take it back to Doriath? That might be something that Elwing's rescue team might salvage. Does Elrond end up owning it? Does Arwen inherit it and wears it in the frame?

MithLuin said:
As for the other issues you raise, it may be impractical to get a large loom into the treehouse prison. Perhaps she felts or crochets the cloak, rather than making it from woven fabric.
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Felting needs huge amounts of water and - for a mantle - a huge floor space.

Crochet? That's knitting, not weaving. One could do it sitting on a branch but really seldom used for mantles.

A standing loom could work as the tree is huge:

spinning 1.png
 
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MithLuin said:
We know from the text that Beren exits Doriath at the point of Aelin-Uial in the southwest corner, crossing the river Sirion by boat and setting off towards the highlands around Nargothrond. We will want to get him to Nargothrond quickly, though. The Nargothrond story cannot begin until he arrives, and we will want that to happen in Act 1.
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Catching a wild horse?
 
No, it's not the travel time. It's the screen time or the story time that matters. Meaning, we will have to establish very quickly that Beren is heading to Nargothrond. So, we wouldn't have a 'consider the options' scene, but rather show him setting out in this direction for a reason.

I realize that weaving is the more common way of making cloth. But knitting is also an option.

I suppose there's also this method:
 
MithLuin said:
No, it's not the travel time. It's the screen time or the story time that matters. Meaning, we will have to establish very quickly that Beren is heading to Nargothrond. So, we wouldn't have a 'consider the options' scene, but rather show him setting out in this direction for a reason.

I realize that weaving is the more common way of making cloth. But knitting is also an option.

I suppose there's also this method:
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Does not Tolkien state she weaves it on a loom and that Daeron makes this loom for her himself as a token of reconcilation?

Crochet actually is not confirmed in Europe before the 19th century, naalbinding or sprang were used before - for millenia. Sprang does need a frame, naalbinding takes a little longer than crochet - but really - for a full mantle?

The example (a nice charkha wheel btw) above is sewing braids - also not weaving - a lot of work and time consuming and see, she needs a huge bed and a long tailor's working table for it - a standing loom takes actually much less space as it is vertical.
 
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I recognize that crochet is a newer technique. But there are variations on knitting that have been in place for a long time, and there are of course a variety of ways of making cloth without a loom.

According to Silm Film's costume designer in Season 2, Anastasia:
-Knitting will be a feature of the clothing of the elves of Alqualondë
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So, it's not like we won't have knitting in Doriath.

As you point out, Hirilorn is a massive tree. My concern is less with the space taken up by objects than with how unwieldy objects will be transported into the prison. Lúthien will be confined within the tree. Therefore, any gaps (to let in air, light, and supplies) must be too small for Lúthien herself to squeeze through to escape. This is a prison with windows, but no doors. Remember, what is keeping her confined is her unwillingness to hurt the tree. People will bring her things via ladder, sure. But there's a logistics issue. Some things could be broken down and then reassembled inside, and we don't necessarily have to show the delivery on camera. But I'm not sure hauling a loom up into the tree prison is going to be feasible.

I'm also not too worried about it at this stage of the process. We're going to say "Lúthien requests supplies and makes a cloak from her hair" (or something to that effect) in the script outline. Working out all of the details is more of a question for costumes and props. What we set here are the constraints, and what we hope to accomplish with this scene.
 
One of the main issues of this episode is that Beren has almost no agency. He decides to go to Nargothrond, and he therefore sets a whole situation into motion...but...once he gets to Nargothrond and tells Finrod what he seeks to do, he's more or less a bystander while the Noldor politics plays out. Do we want to do something about that?
 
MithLuin said:
One of the main issues of this episode is that Beren has almost no agency. He decides to go to Nargothrond, and he therefore sets a whole situation into motion...but...once he gets to Nargothrond and tells Finrod what he seeks to do, he's more or less a bystander while the Noldor politics plays out. Do we want to do something about that?
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Well, we know Beren is high in Finrod's favor, perhaps the Feanorians try to take advantage of that - get him on their side to promote their agenda to the King, use him as a middleman, something like that? The middleman idea could be under the guise of "this Man has no allegiance to any Elf, let's use him!"
 
MithLuin said:
As you point out, Hirilorn is a massive tree. My concern is less with the space taken up by objects than with how unwieldy objects will be transported into the prison.
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Spinning and weaving are very much traditionally connected to magic, while knitting is not. Knitting arrives in Europe in late Middle Ages from the Middle East - as far I do remember. It is to modern to have any magical associations. "Spinning and weaving" "spells and magic" is a thing. Never heard of someone "knitting magic".

A standing loom is basically a few sticks/poles fit to be stuck together - quite easy to dis-and reassemble, sticks can be carried on one's back when climbing or be transported up via ropes.

And Daeron might bring Luthien stuff, no reason for the tree will keep him out - he might be free to come and go as he is her messenger during this time.

The spinning wheel itself is far more a logistic problem than the loom itself - you have to transport it without its parts getting too disarranged to be re-adjustable. Doubt it is a portable one, those are a quite modern invention.

I think Luthien has also some furniture brought up for her, doubt she "sleeps"= rests in a hammock. She also needs food and water being brought to her.

MithLuin said:
One of the main issues of this episode is that Beren has almost no agency. He decides to go to Nargothrond, and he therefore sets a whole situation into motion...but...once he gets to Nargothrond and tells Finrod what he seeks to do, he's more or less a bystander while the Noldor politics plays out. Do we want to do something about that?
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Beren might be the one proposing the "let's dress up as orcs idea". Seems a human thing to do.

Other question - what do all the elves do when he needs to sleeps? Just patiently wait for him standing around?
 
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Nargothrond is very accustomed to human habits. The entire House of Bëor lived there for 70 years.
 
Odola said:
Beren might be the one proposing the "let's dress up as orcs idea". Seems a human thing to do.
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He could, but that is likely a question for the following episode.

Other question - what do all the elves do when he needs to sleeps? Just patiently wait for him standing around?
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I don't think this is something we need to worry about depicting on screen.
 
kanji_d said:
Well, we know Beren is high in Finrod's favor, perhaps the Feanorians try to take advantage of that - get him on their side to promote their agenda to the King, use him as a middleman, something like that? The middleman idea could be under the guise of "this Man has no allegiance to any Elf, let's use him!"
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I do like that. It would certainly feel more dramatic during the climax if Beren had thought the C-bros were on his team. We would just have to engineer it so that they seemed in support of him right until he doesn't do the thing they want.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
I do like that. It would certainly feel more dramatic during the climax if Beren had thought the C-bros were on his team. We would just have to engineer it so that they seemed in support of him right until he doesn't do the thing they want.
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This is the portion of the story that I tend to look at as "Beren comes to terms with being carried".
Everything Beren does, or attempts to do backfires on him in this middle section, and he is saved by Luthien every time.
That would fit perfectly, as he tries to make friends and allies in Nargathrond, and it ultimately backfires on him, like every other plan he attempts to make in this section.

Would Finrod be aware of this? Or counsel him in any way regarding the sons of Feanor?
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
I do like that. It would certainly feel more dramatic during the climax if Beren had thought the C-bros were on his team. We would just have to engineer it so that they seemed in support of him right until he doesn't do the thing they want.
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Why would he think that? Finrod makes abundantly clear to Beren that he would have a hard time of things because of the C-bros' oath.
 
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