Accomplish? Magic. Spinning and weaving are magical actions in old Europeans mythologies. They symbolise the creation of the world and of the human body, the spun thread symbolises life itself. Spinning untersils have been universal gravegoods - especially for women and especially for high status women - for millenia.[...} We're going to say "Lúthien requests supplies and makes a cloak from her hair" (or something to that effect) in the script outline. Working out all of the details is more of a question for costumes and props. What we set here are the constraints, and what we hope to accomplish with this scene.
I've always assumed Daeron's intention was to let Thingol talk Luthien out of her crazy idea - not to imprison her.If Daeron does betray Lúthien's confidence here, then what will their interactions be like during her imprisonment? We definitely wanted Daeron to think that Thingol had gone too far, so he would be willing to aid Lúthien, but if there is a betrayal between them, she may be reticent to trust him.
Really liked Beren's "outlaw in one's own land" line being picked up by Luthien and the execution like procession with Luthien to Hírilorn.Here is the outline for Episode 5:
Silmarillion Film Project Season 6 Episode 5 Script Outline Protagonist - Beren A-Plot: The Oath of Barahir vs the Oath of Fëanor lands the crown of the king of Nargothrond on the ground. B-Plot: Lúthien decides to follow Beren, but first she must escape Hirilorn C-Plot: Daeron is working on be...docs.google.com
And the Twitch conversation
After listening to the session on this part of the story I was left wanting with the story of Hirilorn and thinking that the solution as to why the tree lets Luthien go was not answered satisfactorily for me. Luthien has to convince the tree to let her go, and in the end the tree does. Why? My thoughts when approaching it from a musical perspective is that I need to come up with a progression in Luthien’s songs. This is the first time that she uses song to affect change on another being and every song needs to build on this starting point. To me the rationale needs to be that if Luthien stays she will come to harm and what better way to introduce the concept of elves dying from grief. If Luthien stays and Breen dies she will die of grief so Hirilorn can prevent this harm by letting her go. I don’t believe that we have done a story of an elf dying from grief except for Muriel (but as Corey always says, that is a bad data point). The difficult thing will be to portray this as more than a woman swooning saying that she will die without her man (go script team). To me the emphasis needs to be on the grief and what this does to her fea and hroa. I would also envisage this as being the starting point in her next song, to convince Huan to release her and accompany her. This starting point also is a root for the overall season theme of release from bondage.
The thing is - Hirilorn is a tree. She thinks like one. Death by grief seems to me a completely foreign concept to a tree, while the wish to become a great tree itself a valid natural goal for a beechnut - which is how she sees Luthien in relation to Thingol. Thingol wants to protect Luthien - as his seed - this is an idea Hirilorn considers legitimate in itself - but he clearly does overdo it - which is a fault and Hirilorn might choose to help Thingol to do what he should do himself - or at least not to be complicit in his clearly overstepping his nature-given boundaries? If Hirilorn is a representant of nature, life and the natural order (and - to an extent - the female) then Thingol clealy goes againts all this in his ultimately life-denying preservation of the status quo. As such Hirilorn joining Melian's and Luthien's position on the matter after having had some time to think about it seems a natural development to me. And the consideration of Luthien possible death of grief a little to far-fetched for Hirilorn's perspective and outlook?There is definitely merit in that approach and I think it can be an element of the argument, but we are left with Hirilorn disobeying a direct order from the king of the realm. The reason for releasing Luthien needs to trump the imprisonment order and I feel that letting Luthien blossom and grow does not cut it and comes over a bit wishy-washy. A bit like when the resolution to every problem in Doctor Who was “think happy thoughts.” Say what you will about the Peter Jackson adaptations of LOTR but he successfully upped the tension and suspense in many scenes by adding the threat of death eg. Frodo falling into the Dead Marshes, Sam falling off the slope at the slag hills and nearly being discovered by the Harradrim or the orc chasing Merry and Pippin into Fangorn. Death was on the line which makes for good drama according to Vissini. Death by grief is a real thing in Tolkien and I think this is a good opportunity to begin the exploration of this idea and to up the level of tension and drama in this scene. Will Hirilorn blindly obey the king’s order which will ultimately lead to the death of Luthien whom she loves or will she risk the wrath of the king by letting her go but ultimately saving Luthien in the process? Such drama!
Agreed.True, the concept of death from grief is a foreign concept for a tree but Hirilorn does not need to understand the whole thing.
The important thing to the tree is that imprisonment is leading to death which can be physically seen in Luthien at this point and she will die if she remains imprisoned. We can further the freedom and blooming analogy for the tree’s sake as part of Hirilorn’s motivation to release her but for Luthien the risk of death from grief is real and the audience are the ones to take home this new understanding of elvish bonds in life and death. This will also be the precursor for Luthien’s final act to save Beren as my understanding is that her fea will follow Beren to Mandos, in effect dying herself as I don’t see her physically travelling to Valinor unless one of the valar intervenes. I don’t think the hosts dealt with this issue specifically in the sessions.
Otherwise it comes across as Luthien begs and the tree relents against direct orders. I think that commands from the king are much simpler for a tree to understand than the complex weighing up of whether a seed will germinate and grow into a tree, and by the tree’s standard very few of its seeds will become full grown trees and reach their full potential. Surely Thingol has more offspring that will succeed if Luthien fails. The difference is that Hirilorn has love for Luthien. In terms of complexity of needs, Hirilorn is acting according to the most basic needs. She is providing food and shelter, but this is actually compromising her safety and security so it is out of love that Hirilorn acts. I think that is as far up the pyramid that a Huorn can go.
I think I have also been influenced by Asimov’s laws of robotics. 1. Don’t harm humans 2. Do what human’s ask you to do unless that contradicts the first law. We have to make Thingol’s command harmful to Luthien otherwise disobeying the command does not carry enough weight. I know Hirilorn is not a robot but I think it is a good analogy.
Not yet. If we have one that we intend to present, we'll make sure it's dropped in here ahead of time for folks to review and make suggestions upon.Has a draft script been produced for episode 6.05? I'd like to review it if possible before it gets discussed in the next SFP session (6-20) on 8 Dec 22.
I offered to write the script for this episode when I learned we didn’t have one in the last script discussion. I was also traveling for work all last week and didn’t have much time (or internet connection) to work on it. I’ll post what I have done of the script this Thursday or Friday. It probably won’t be a full script, but at least it’ll be better than nothing.Has a draft script been produced for episode 6.05? I'd like to review it if possible before it gets discussed in the next SFP session (6-20) on 8 Dec 22.