Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
This episode dealing with the capture of Finrod, Beren & Co by Sauron, as well as Luthien's arrival in Nargothrond will be discussed on August 5 (maybe) , @ 8 PM ET.
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Question:
Who cames up with the idea of the orc disguise and which orc camp do they ambush? How do they go about it? What is Beren's contribution?
I propose that while in Sauron's prison Finrod - knowing of his own near death and having nor offsping on his own (yet) declares that the offspring of his comrades who die with him would carry on his name in ME and be given the honorific title "of the House of Finrod" as a sign of their fathers' loyalty to their king (maybe even mentioning that they are more faithfull to him than his own family - seeing that no one from Nargothrond bothered to come to his rescue when the news of his capture must have reached them). Beren would be the one witnessing this and passing on the message of the decree to the families in Nargothrond once his is back in Doriath or even before when he is in Brethil recovering.
I do like that. It ties the issue up in a neat bow. It'll depend on if there is a natural place to put it, but I'll try to keep it in mind.
If we see Inglor die as one example of the companions being killed and we before have been shown little Gildor kissing him good-bye at taking leave from Nargothrond, then Iglor's death would be a natural place for Finrod to declare this in a moment of bitterness and grief. But I am not yet sure how exactly the deaths of the comrades will be handled in the end? There were several ideas, as far I do remember.
Yeah, the issue is that our focus in the scene is on Finrod and Beren. The death of the other prisoners happens off-screen but nearby. Let me get the thread for the episode in question started and we can discuss it there.
You're gonna make me tear up... gosh I love Gildor...
If we follow the suggestion that Guilin is one of the companions, that does put us under some obligation to introduce Gwindor now - I seem to recall us kicking the can on that to this or next season but since Finduilas has been introduced I don't see too many issues with it. We don't know much about his life (the Lay of the Children of Hurin puts him in Nargothrond while Turin is there, but it's a passing mention and never returns in the later tellings afaik).
There was a discussion in casting about Finrod's companions. I have copied it over here.
You're gonna make me tear up... gosh I love Gildor...
If we follow the suggestion that Guilin is one of the companions, that does put us under some obligation to introduce Gwindor now - I seem to recall us kicking the can on that to this or next season but since Finduilas has been introduced I don't see too many issues with it. We don't know much about his life (the Lay of the Children of Hurin puts him in Nargothrond while Turin is there, but it's a passing mention and never returns in the later tellings afaik).
Whatever Finrod says can justify 'Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod', but can't leave Orodreth challengers to the throne.
Just asking, but when people talk of the house of X, that doesnot necessarily mean that they are the sons or daughters of that person, right?
And even then, Gildor is rooted in the pre-LOTR legendarium when Finrod was Inglor and Finarfin was Finrod (this is before the moment when we get the first identification with of Sauron with the Necromancer and the story of Beren and Luthien - see HOME VII.10). Presumably, when Tolkien wrote Gildor in, he wasn't quite connecting it to the story of the Silmarillion. Connecting to the characters, yes, but not the story. Hence why he could have said Inglor-Finrod had children to give the impression of depth present throughout LOTR. The fact that he never went back to change it in his multitudinous Silmarillion revisions afterwards is strange, though not unsurprising given how much he was working on.
Making Gildor "of the house of Finrod" also has the problem of maybe making Gildor High King after Gil-Galad... or perhaps he would even have a claim to it before. There are a few ways to resolve this:
- Finrod, ever caring for his people, makes a final decree to call either the ten companions (or possibly even the whole of Nargothrond, which I think might be interesting) the House of Finrod, as a symbol of his love. "House," in this case, is not a matter of lineage but they literally live in the same house (well, cave, but the symbol of Nargothrond as Finrod's sanctuary for his people is the same). If we choose our words carefully, we can ensure that Kingships pass through the line of Finwë, not the house of Finwë.
- Also an interesting idea is that if Gildor is young enough, Orodreth can become as father to him and the other children of the ten companions. This cleverly bypasses the issue of Orodreth's succession (since Gil-Galad is already his eldest), and Orodreth can confer on them the House of Finrod epithet.
- If any of the children of the ten companions do have a claim to the High Kingship, there is of course an opportunity in Season Whatever-After-The-War-of-Wrath for the Noldor to discuss if they actually need a High King. They eventually do, but Gildor could stand as representative for those who don't want a High King, joined by the other of the children of the ten (loyal to the diplomatic Finrod and/or the anti-political Orodreth, they might see the High Kingship as an unnecessary formality that only serves to foster division). Then, after the War of the Las Alliance, they revisit this, and with no remaining descendants of Finwë, nobody really wanting the title, and their numbers much reduced, they end up fracturing into small communities in Lindon, Imladris, Eregion, to the situation mostly like that in the rest of the Third Age.
I'm mostly thinking of the post-Orodreth line, which includes Gil-Galad. Finrod isn't thinking of the High Kingship, you're right, which is why it's a problem we might have to solve. If people have a claim on the normal kingship, it follows they might have a claim on the High Kingship once the line of Fingolfin dies out (which, as we know, it does). I'm coming up with ways of resolving that potential issue. The immediate succession to Orodreth is, I think, an easier problem to solve.
Just asking, but when people talk of the house of X, that does not necessarily mean that they are the sons or daughters of that person, right?
I rather like the idea of playing up Sauron stripping them of their dignity even in death... feels very Sauronic.
But would Finrod be like: "Yeah, well..." - back to discussing philosophy with Beren.
You may recall that in the story as planned, this is dealt with by having Beren be the only one in the room with him.
Yes, Finrod and Beren know what happens to the others.(Sorry, there were several ideas thrown around and I've ended up unsure, what exact constellation the talk ultimately resulted in and how binding it was).
But Finrod and Beren still do know what happens to the others? Is not the whole aim of Sauron's arrangement of letting the werewolves eat them up one by one not to terrorize Finrod himself into submission? - How could that work if Finrod does not helplessly witness what happens to his men?