Script Discussion S06E06

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Sorry, of course Fingon. Will correct this above.
I was talking about heirs and inheritences already being introduced as subjects this season both to the audience and to the Feanorians. The theme is already present enough imho and does not require any special buildup for Finrod to refer to it in the dungeon scene - for me at least.
The very specific set of rules Finrod has to set is what causes the problem. To those in the know, it might seem we were going out of our way to handle the "Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod" thing. To those not in the know, it might seem an odd non sequitur.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
The very specific set of rules Finrod has to set is what causes the problem. To those in the know, it might seem we were going out of our way to handle the "Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod" thing. To those not in the know, it might seem an odd non sequitur.
It is an exception to the rules. It is an exceptional situation. Fits for me.

Do not see how this is going "out of the way". Finrod is going "out of the way" to keep a promise given to a human. His "going out of the way" dwarfs any of ours so that it will not be noticed anyway. Why not seize the moment then?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
It is an exception to the rules. It is an exceptional situation. Fits for me.

Do not see how this is going "out of the way". Finrod is going "out of the way" to keep a promise given to a human. His "going out of the way" dwarfs any of ours so that it will not be noticed anyway. Why not seize the moment then?
I get that it fits for you. I'm just not convinced it will fit without some setup, and I don't see a great way to insert setup.

The good news is that we won't be having the script discussion for this episode for more than a month, so we have time to figure stuff out.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I get that it fits for you. I'm just not convinced it will fit without some setup, and I don't see a great way to insert setup.

The good news is that we won't be having the script discussion for this episode for more than a month, so we have time to figure stuff out.
The point is - we need see Finrod reacting dramatically to the situation he brought his men into, they are held captive because he failed in a song fight in his very own tower and he brought his people into because of his very own oath. This is drama, so to for him act dramatic is expected.

What is not, is for him to behave like this was a normal occurence, which the story as told by Tolkien - which focusses on Beren - seems to make it out to be.
But for Beren everything is strange in this story, as such what elves do or do not do does not necessary have to make sense to him.
Beren is focussed on his quest - how many elves drop dead on the way to reach this goal of his does not seem to faze him.
But it should faze Finrod!
As such Finrod's reacting out of the ordinary fits the circumstances.
Finrod's adopting Beren's attitude: "this all does not really concern me" - that would be what would feel strange.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
The point is - we need see Finrod reacting dramatically to the situation he brought his men into, they are held captive because he failed in a song fight in his very own tower and he brought his people into because of his very own oath. This is drama, so to for him act dramatic is expected.

What is not, is for him to behave like this was a normal occurence, which the story as told by Tolkien - which focusses on Beren - seems to make it out to be.
But for Beren everything is strange in this story, as such what elves do or do not do does not necessary have to make sense to him.
Beren is focussed on his quest - how many elves drop dead on the way to reach this goal of his does not seem to faze him.
But it should faze Finrod!
As such Finrod's reacting out of the ordinary fits the circumstances.
Finrod's adopting Beren's attitude: "this all does not really concern me" - that would be what would feel strange.
Yes it would.
 

Vibes

New Member
You know Finrod could declare when his cast down crown is picked up, that the people who follow him were the ones loyal to him- the people of his house. And when Sauron is killing them one by one, he can grieve the death of the members of his house and how being of his house only got them killed. Almost like he in his self loathing starts blaming himself. I means elven spirits are not exactly unbreakable and Finrod is breaking little by little due to his inability to help and so by the time he sees the same same happening to beren, hi is mostly insane and feral. All his self preservation instincts are dead. So like his only job at that moment is to save his companion.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I think it very clear that the both of you are approaching this question from very different angles.

Odola, you are wanting to emphasize and justify Inglor being "of the House of Finrod", and the connection to Gildor - thus the suggestions to show a young Gildor at the leavetaking, and to have Finrod declare, officially, that his companions in death are his kin.

Nick, you are wanting to work on story structure, where elements are included as they make sense for those characters and those circumstances. You don't want there to be 'distractions' arising during the moments leading up to Finrod's sacrifice and death. Time out for a technicality while people are being eaten by wolves doesn't seem to fit.

I think one possible solution would be to deal with this matter much earlier. In the very beginning of Episode 6, when it's just Finrod, Beren, and the 10 companions on their way...it would be appropriate for Finrod to say a few words thanking them for their loyalty in accompanying him, as well as warning them that this quest is likely to end in death for all of them (or perhaps more euphemistically about their chances of return from Angband). If he does this before they even encounter the orcs, it won't distract from what is to come, and it serves more as a last-chance-to-back-out than an attempt to memorialize people who are actively dying.

Would this help?
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I think it very clear that the both of you are approaching this question from very different angles.

Odola, you are wanting to emphasize and justify Inglor being "of the House of Finrod", and the connection to Gildor - thus the suggestions to show a young Gildor at the leavetaking, and to have Finrod declare, officially, that his companions in death are his kin.

Nick, you are wanting to work on story structure, where elements are included as they make sense for those characters and those circumstances. You don't want there to be 'distractions' arising during the moments leading up to Finrod's sacrifice and death. Time out for a technicality while people are being eaten by wolves doesn't seem to fit.

I think one possible solution would be to deal with this matter much earlier. In the very beginning of Episode 6, when it's just Finrod, Beren, and the 10 companions on their way...it would be appropriate for Finrod to say a few words thanking them for their loyalty in accompanying him, as well as warning them that this quest is likely to end in death for all of them (or perhaps more euphemistically about their chances of return from Angband). If he does this before they even encounter the orcs, it won't distract from what is to come, and it serves more as a last-chance-to-back-out than an attempt to memorialize people who are actively dying.

Would this help?
This would imho leave out Finrod's dismay at people of Nargothrond and his kin in particular doing nothing to get them out. The C-bros were all for retaking Tol Sirion but now that Finrod is held captive there they hold Orodreth back. This does amount to a betrayal. Luthien is on her way to get Beren out even before he is captured and nothing holds her back. (I know Finrod does not know this - but the audience does and that is enough for the story). Orodreth is held back by the C-bros' few words. Finrod has all the right in the world to feel bitter.

I also think to put Finrod's declaration at the beginning of their journey would be compromising Finrod's call to all of his people demanding their loyalty in the abdication scene. Reminding his companions shortly afterwards that they could die - after most of Nargothrond sides with the C-bros for exactly the same reason - seems unnecessary. One always "can die" on a mission to Angband - even as an elf. But there is a difference between the mere possibility of dying and actualy being eaten alive by werewolves while those in duty to rescue you do not move a finger.

So for me there is a natural theme of loyalty in Finrod's story. First his kingdom betrays him - then his family. As such his reaction in that very moment makes sense.

I do not really see what a generic vague reminder about the possibilty of dying before leave-taking would bring to the story and how it would free Finrod to be unconcerned enough to just discuss philosophy with Beren while his companions are being killed off one by one for their loyalty to their leader?

What other strong and story-economic reaction can you give Finrod in the dungeons instead?

The companions' death is on Finrod. He decides to bring them along, to go via Tol Sirion, he has lost the song battle.
He could have chosen to go with Beren alone or to take another route. It was not their oath to Barahir after all, just his. As such he does owe them and has to yet pay them back while he is alive.

Finrod's fate is to die fulfilling his oath, but not necessary to treat his own companions as disposable extras?

The more underlying question is - do we tell an athropo-centric story where Beren - just by being the human hero - is the centre of the story's universe and all others - Luthien included, are just props, objects? He is the protagonist - the other's just mere tools and catalists for his action and can be ignored once their task is done?

Or are we telling a story where elves are also real characters and e.g. their deaths do matter?
I was under the impression that it is the latter.

As such the dungeon is imho hardly a place to make the story solely Beren-centric again - he is not the one to die there.

Imho it does not really lessen Beren as a character if we and the audience take a moment in the dungeon to honour the fallen...
It really is not always just all about him and his love interest.

But I see also how the impulse to make the story Beren-centric at this very moment might overrule all that. The story as told by Tolkien is Beren-centric, Finrod's companions and Finrod's death itself serve in the texts only the purpose to elevate Beren's status in the story - as that of the fated hero.

I just do not think this attitude serves the perspective from which our story is told, where "elves are real people, too". And it lessens Finrod as a character in the stories that came before, as a person and as a leader imho.

I have stated my case. Do with it as you want. ;)
 
Last edited:

Odola

Well-Known Member
If we stress the few persons surviving Nargothrond being "the House of Finrod" then how about making Finduilas being in the same group of refugees that the still minor Gildor and having her command him to hide in the tree that she defends and is ultimetelly pinned too? So her puting up a fight below the tree (I am sure she did knew some magic at least - even if not a warrior) was a kind of self-sacrifcial distraction from the child hiding above her? That way Gildor can give a report of what exacly has happened and then be send on to the nearest elvish place and then ultimately join Gil-Galad at the Cirdian's place?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
If we stress the few persons surviving Nargothrond being "the House of Finrod" then how about making Finduilas being in the same group of refugees that the still minor Gildor and having her command him to hide in the tree that she defends and is ultimetelly pinned too? So her puting up a fight below the tree (I am sure she did knew some magic at least - even if not a warrior) was a kind of self-sacrifcial distraction from the child hiding above her? That way Gildor can give a report of what exacly has happened and then be send on to the nearest elvish place and then ultimately join Gil-Galad at the Cirdian's place?
That party of refugees were prisoners who were slaughtered to a man.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
That party of refugees were prisoners who were slaughtered to a man.
A child is not a man... And can escape notice, both of orcs and of Turin's band and be found later... We have this in Tolkien with Pippin and Merry making it alive out of an orc troup that were "killed to a man" too. So there is precedence... It is just an idea.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Season 6 Episode 6 Outline:

 
Top