Script Discussion S06E09

MithLuin said:
When he wakes up and is healing, he is not really in a position to be critical of how Lúthien went about saving his life. What she did worked, and if he is critical, he is going to come across to the audience as ungrateful and maybe even a bit petty.
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But also remember that he just woke up after a confrontation with two elvish warriors who were condescending towards him. That would be the main thing on his mind. And Luthien is an elf after all, so he would be naturally oversensitive to anything she could say or do and which could be misinterpreted as expressing doubt in his capability to handle the quest just because he happens to be a human - whether she meant it this way or not.
 
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Agreed, he may be sensitive about such things...but at this stage, he is more likely to silently internalize them than to argue with Lúthien about it.
 
MithLuin said:
Agreed, he may be sensitive about such things...but at this stage, he is more likely to silently internalize them than to argue with Lúthien about it.
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Still, he might ask about it neutraly ("an it has not occured to you...") and make a disspointed face if she says somethig that he could percive as potentially dismissive towards humans. This could serve as a signal that there are multiple reasons for his decission to leave Luthien behind and one of those would be his inability/unwillingness to adress their differences directly.

BTW, they were on their way back to Doriath initially in the original story? - So it seems Beren was intending to bring Luthien back to Doriath before he set out on his own to Angband anyway?
 
In our version, Beren vetoes Lúthien's idea to simply live in the woods together, and seemingly accepts her later proposal to go to Doriath. It is his hope that when she finds him gone, she will return to Doriath with Huan, and tasks Huan with keeping her safe. So yes, they were traveling 'towards Doriath' when he leaves her.

Beren is in love with Lúthien. He doesn't leave her because he doesn't like her, but rather 'for her own good' - it is clearly a mistake on his part not to discuss honestly with her his concerns and decide a course together, but he is not disapproving of her.
 
MithLuin said:
In our version, Beren vetoes Lúthien's idea to simply live in the woods together, and seemingly accepts her later proposal to go to Doriath. It is his hope that when she finds him gone, she will return to Doriath with Huan, and tasks Huan with keeping her safe. So yes, they were traveling 'towards Doriath' when he leaves her.

Beren is in love with Lúthien. He doesn't leave her because he doesn't like her, but rather 'for her own good' - it is clearly a mistake on his part not to discuss honestly with her his concerns and decide a course together, but he is not disapproving of her.
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O.k. works.
But still "being in love with someone" does not mean one does not get offended when considering oneself disregarded or taken lightly by one's love interest - actually the opposite - it is usually one of the main causes of heart ache. And heart ache is good for romantic story telling - most of old love poems, love songs and love stories tend to include it - because it does make good drama.
 
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MithLuin said:
Beren is in love with Lúthien. He doesn't leave her because he doesn't like her, but rather 'for her own good' - it is clearly a mistake on his part not to discuss honestly with her his concerns and decide a course together, but he is not disapproving of her.
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Just to add onto that thought.
Not only 'for her own good' but also from the insecure need to feel like he's worthy of her. Like he's earned her love.
And her healing of him would only reinforce that feeling.
 
Just an interesting tidbit from the Tale of Tinúviel, when Beren and Lúthien are thinking about what they should be doing after the Tevildo episode, they really don't want to part from each other, and Beren literally says "Tinúviel, one thing only can we do — go get a silmaril". There's less of the reluctance to have her come along. It may not align with the story we are hoping to tell here, but it shows a slightly different side to their relationship, Beren very much knowing he needs to bring Tinúviel with him. It's a cool line, too, and would possibly work in SilFilm at the point in which Beren accepts Lúthien coming with him to Angband.
 
I agree. I think there could be maybe a version where he feels like he brought this Silmaril job onto himself (so it is a burden that is on him, less because he thinks it is too dangerous for luthien, but because he agreed to that admittedly quite sketchy deal with thingol). But honestly I think their mental states are less of a problem I think (I think we all agree Beren doesn't just wanna protect Luthien bc he thinks he is stronger and better than her), but how to do that moment of separation or not.

I feel like we don't need another detour honestly where Luthien starts voyaging into another direction only to notice that Beren is going into another direction and to turn around, if there is a separation i would honestly prefer him sneaking off after they maybe had a discussion over just eloping now or him wanting to finish his quest etc.

I have sometimes had the impression that a part of the constant on and off beren & luthien have in the quest originates a little from tolkien projecting his own relationship and its interruptions and troubles onto it a little. That relationship was much longer though and here in the quest for me, it results in a lot of dead air spent in these detours. Could they not just have that conversation, where they don't really come to a satisfying conclusion, maybe beren tries to sneak off and Luthien notices and catches up with him, and then they properly commit to now go to Angband. We could have pretty much the same emotional impact in much less geografical distance and time spent on traveling etc.
 
Beren should be well aware that Luthien is far stronger and more powerful than himself! He doesn't think her weak.
 
Yeah but I think that is not even our issue right? I think we agree on that, but i am a little unsure of why he leaves *despite that*, or how to tell that story in a more elegant way/better suited to our format kind of way.
 
Kathrin said:
Yeah but I think that is not even our issue right? I think we agree on that, but i am a little unsure of why he leaves *despite that*, or how to tell that story in a more elegant way/better suited to our format kind of way.
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Imho I think him having to prove himself to Thingol and maybe even to Luthien as a capable effective warrior - especialy after having managed to get a famous elvish king and all their companions killed for nothing - is a natural motivaton for Beren - he thinks it is his quest and only he can fulfill it or die.

But after the "toxic masculinity"discussion lately any man having a longing to prove himself a hero is automatically suspect per default and so the pseudo-ancient story no longer works... it is a pity
 
Toxic masculinity, by definition, implies the existence of non-toxic masculinity. Beren wanting to fulfill the quest is one thing....his decision to do so without discussing his plan with Lúthien is at issue. It gets resolved.
 
MithLuin said:
Toxic masculinity, by definition, implies the existence of non-toxic masculinity. Beren wanting to fulfill the quest is one thing....his decision to do so without discussing his plan with Lúthien is at issue. It gets resolved.
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Why then is Beren's need to prove his worth in front of Thingol not a valid reason for him to pursuit his quest? Love interests are not the only valid motivations in one's life. Warrior's honour is a complete valid reason in itself in Tolkien's pseudo-archaic world. It does not have all be just about Luthien with Beren - even if we tell a romantic story.
 
I was not even adressing the validity of Beren's desire to prove himself. The question is how the communication, the honesty, and the amount of misdirection in this part of their journey is handled. And also some choices may just lead to more or less elegant storytelling, not changing the emotional impact or the motivation of the character necessarily.
 
Kathrin said:
I was not even adressing the validity of Beren's desire to prove himself. The question is how the communication, the honesty, and the amount of misdirection in this part of their journey is handled. And also some choices may just lead to more or less elegant storytelling, not changing the emotional impact or the motivation of the character necessarily.
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Thet is true - a too much streamlined motivation makes a character appear flat and boring, a too complex one is distracting from the main theme of the story. Finding a good balance is crucial.
 
I'm very okay with a certain toxic masculinity existing in such a world.It did and still does exist here right now, i think it's wrong to eradicate it by simply ignoring it. Beren is proud, him wanting to prove his worth is stupid but okay.Men can be like that, why not Beren? So he is irrational at that point to the degree he makes a fatal mistake. I'm okay with that.
 
But that is what I mean, I am not saying we should do x or y because beren should make a mistake or not. Us deciding if we have him do sth the narrative might frame in a certain way is one thing, the other is what events we have happen to have that conflict & resolution play out.

What I was trying to say, is that no matter what we decide on the first part, I think it is unncessary to have a whole other detour to have luthien somehow go halfway back to doriath again, and then turn back or sth, because that does nothing to tell the story much more compellingly, it just makes the logistics more complicated. I am basically argueing for having whatever ends up being their precise disagreement and method of working it out happen in a pretty short time and close geographic area, because i think putting in more travel time only dilutes that moment with unnecessary legwork.
 
Kathrin said:
But that is what I mean, I am not saying we should do x or y because beren should make a mistake or not. Us deciding if we have him do sth the narrative might frame in a certain way is one thing, the other is what events we have happen to have that conflict & resolution play out.

What I was trying to say, is that no matter what we decide on the first part, I think it is unncessary to have a whole other detour to have luthien somehow go halfway back to doriath again, and then turn back or sth, because that does nothing to tell the story much more compellingly, it just makes the logistics more complicated. I am basically argueing for having whatever ends up being their precise disagreement and method of working it out happen in a pretty short time and close geographic area, because i think putting in more travel time only dilutes that moment with unnecessary legwork.
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The problem is there is no other way to have the "C's bros" meet B&L further North without C&C looking like heros and then without a secluded place where a heavily wounded Beren could be tended to without random orcs or Daeron finding them - the valley around Tol-in-Gaurhoth is not very wide. We would need a cave in the Encirkling Mountains with some concealing spells put on by Luthien for the latter part.
 
I understand your concern, Kathrin. Beren and Lúthien are together for the entire first half of this episode. They do each have scenes apart. Beren to sneak off, confess to Huan, and sing his song of parting. And Lúthien to wake up alone, and then come across the ill-fated elves of Doriath who were out looking for her before deciding to go after Beren. But... that's it. Then they are back together and heading for Angband!
 
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