Script Discussion S06E13

[MithLuin]

The final script discussion for Season 6 will take place on Friday April 7, 2023 at 8 PM Eastern Time.
Edit: A recording of this discussion may be found at the following link: on Signum U's twitch channel

Join us to discuss the journey of Lúthien to the Halls of Mandos to retrieve her dead mortal husband. She'll face Námo, the 'final boss' of the Quest of the Silmaril...but he's not a villain, and she can't fight him with force or tricks.

This is our final step in the 'Release from Bondage' storyline.

Other things that need to happen: Meanwhile in Doriath, the kingdom is in mourning for the death of Lúthien and Beren. The Hunt for the Wolf was successful, and the kingdom is once again safe, and they even recovered the silmaril...but at what cost? The winter of Thingol.

"Hints of the ominous new plans and future betrayals to come"
Showing Maedhros taking heart...juxtaposed with Sauron and the Easterlings

We may have time for a small Fëanorean subplot in this final episode. We aren't going to get the Union of Maedhros yet, of course, but news of the Quest of Beren and Lúthien (and/or news of Glaurung) can reach Himring. And so we can get the initial Fëanorean reaction to this news....

Glaurung becomes dragon-king of Dorthonion, which is now transformed into Taur-nu-Fuin. Evil baby dragon spawn at Rivil's Well. (witnessed by Daeron?)

Sauron, defeated and stripped of his lordship, heads east over the mountains...and encounters some Easterlings. Teaser for next season.

Emeldir, Morwen, and Rían set out from Brethil to Dor-lómin; we see Andreth's gravestone and/or bier.

It has been nearly a year since we discussed how we would like the Season to end on the podcast, so if you would like to refresh your memory, check out Session 6-11:

After the Announcements, Corey Olsen very conveniently summarizes the entire season in preparation for discussing the finale. Recall that initially, we were requested to put Mandos in Episode 12, so this is the session where we decided to move it to Episode 13. The discussion covers episodes 11-13.

 

[MithLuin]

I would like to discuss whether Lúthien's final words to Beren appear in Episode 12 or Episode 13.

Naturally, we get their final moment together and her initial grief at his death in 12. But...what if she whispers something in his ear that the audience does not hear over the soundtrack? We would get his final words to her, but her "tarry awhile" would be a secret still, even if he nods his agreement. Then, in 13, while we show Lúthien's grief and mourning, we could have a flashback of the death scene where we hear what she says to him...and that's where we get the 'don't you go where I can't follow'. Showing a conversation, and then hearing it later, is not uncommon on film. Typically, it emphasizes the importance of the line by building audience anticipation for it. Would this be helpful for telling the story of Lúthien following Beren into death in Episode 13?

 

[kanji_d]

I think this depends how early in the episode Lúthien leaves. I don't think it would be easy for us to make her leave any later than the end of Act 2? I think the audience will be expecting the reveal to be at least in Act 2. I'm not articulating myself very well right now, but it seems that showing it here would be an anticlimax if we're not setting up the audience to actually want to know her final words within the episode.

 

[Odola]

Other things that need to happen: Meanwhile in Doriath, the kingdom is in mourning for the death of Lúthien and Beren. The Hunt for the Wolf was successful, and the kingdom is once again safe, and they even recovered the silmaril...but at what cost? The winter of Thingol.

- How will Doriath heal from Carcharoth's destruction when its king is in despair? How high were Doriathrim casualities anyways? Is the whole realm in mourning? Or does this all happen before Luthien's death - while she is still mourning?

- Is the elvish mourning colour white (would fit the "Thingol's winter" theme)?

- How is Beren's funeral handled?
- Is Emeldir there for his burial? Does she leave with the girls for Dor-Lomin afterwards also because there is nothing for her left here now - her only child now being dead?

- Is Luthien's 1st body burried along in Beren's grave?
- Do we just show a green mound where his body laid in a meadow implying Luthien's body was added to it when she passed?

As B&L return from Valinor, so for sure their old bodies do not just get reanimated - both seemingly get reembodied - so their old bodies have to be disposed of tastefully. When they get reembodied, Beren should have both hands again - as this is a restoration. His old body is already partially decomposed, so he cannot get back into it for sure, so there is no technical reason why he should keep his handicap. His byname Erchamion: "One-handed" may stick to him akin to king John Lackland who is still called "Lackland" even after he became king and was far from "land-lacking" anymore.

Luthien has a mortal version of a body now, but she still has some magic powers, as she is still able to heal Thingol.

But what are her limitations now? E.g. is she clumsy? Does she struggle with her new limitations? Does she get tired now, has to sleep more often, has to eat more, react to sunlight and nights' darkness differently, does she age, is she aged already (as she shall get a child still, she should be below 50 but she could be around 40 - while Beren is still in his 20's-30's), can she get a cold or a fever, can she sneeze, can she get tooth decay, ulcers, headlice etc. etc. - is she at all prone to any mortal difficulties in life and to what extent? Is her elvish freedom of movement and command over her body impaired? Does she get monthly cycles now? Is she about to hit menopause soon? Does she gets headaches, irritated, impatiend, moody? How does Beren react to those changes - if any? He fell in love with a ever-young elvish princess, now he gets a mere mortal woman - not what he had originally bargained for...

While we do not need to show most of it still we should make a choice if we go the route of
a) she is basically the same as before but has the ability to die now and a limited timeframe to do so
or
b) she gets the whole "mortal woman package"
or
c) somewhere in between - then where?

Does she leave for Ossiriand because she does not want other elves who knew her before to see her in her now this much dimished state? Or does she feel now that the Silmaril will bring about the downfall to Doriath and her father's death and she wants to keep it way from her people as much as possible? Why is she later given the Silmarill at all to wear at all if its actually Thingol's (and his heir's) now? The Feanorians do not attack while she is wearing it - why? Why do they not do it before she gets it - e.g. while the dwarves still have it? It is told that the Silmaril makes her now limited live-force run out faster and shortens her mortal life - but is her power increased or dimished while she is carrying it? What side-effects does it have on her otherwise?

In the texts Luthien dies the 2nd time in 503 aged 3,377. As comparison: Arwen lives for 2901 years - is about 2780 years old at her wedding and in some versions she is well past middle age in mortal years at the moment when she transitions into "mortal mode". This would make Luthien well at the very end of her human procreative years at her on "transition into mortal mode" if we follow Tolkien's calculations here.
And Dior for sure has a human gestation and growing up rate. He dies at 36 and manages to be a king, husband and father of 3 in that short time while elves are still teenagers at that tender age.
Dior's rapid aging actually requires Luthien's having got the whole "mortal woman package".

@MithLuin you've once said you wish to add some years in here to make this whole less rushed. If you add about a century, then Luthien can avoid the problems with the whole "mortal woman package" and we could go with the option a). But I do not think any addition below a 100 years will help us much. Still, this would require carefull consideration where in time we place Elwing's and Earendil's births then for them to be old/young enought to give birth to Elros and Elrond when those need to be born in-story.

We are now in 467-4 = 463? So in the original Luthien lives for 36 years after her return from Mandos, does she live 40 years or more in our version - that is the question? If she lives longer, some events have to be postponed against others.

Showing Maedhros taking heart...juxtaposed with Sauron and the Easterlings

Thingol is in deep depression and Luthien is dead - I do not think it is good optics for Maedhros to "take heart" at that very moment - shows very little compassion for his neighbours' sufferings.

Glaurung becomes dragon-king of Dorthonion, which is now transformed into Taur-nu-Fuin. Evil baby dragon spawn at Rivil's Well. (witnessed by Daeron?)

Quite unplausible for Dareon not being caught by orcs should he attempt to go as far as Rivil's Well?

Sauron, defeated and stripped of his lordship, heads east over the mountains...and encounters some Easterlings. Teaser for next season.

So he had managed to turn Dorthonion into Taur-nu-Fuin in like 3 month - or how much time has passed from his downfall in Tol Sirion?

Emeldir, Morwen, and Rían set out from Brethil to Dor-lómin; we see Andreth's gravestone and/or bier.

Are those informed about Beren's return at all - and if, how do they react to it? Are they freaked out?

I would like to discuss whether Lúthien's final words to Beren appear in Episode 12 or Episode 13.

Naturally, we get their final moment together and her initial grief at his death in 12. But...what if she whispers something in his ear that the audience does not hear over the soundtrack? We would get his final words to her, but her "tarry awhile" would be a secret still, even if he nods his agreement. Then, in 13, while we show Lúthien's grief and mourning, we could have a flashback of the death scene where we hear what she says to him...and that's where we get the 'don't you go where I can't follow'. Showing a conversation, and then hearing it later, is not uncommon on film. Typically, it emphasizes the importance of the line by building audience anticipation for it. Would this be helpful for telling the story of Lúthien following Beren into death in Episode 13?

I am too traumatised yet by the awful "floating boat"- simily from RoP which also has such a delayed reveal of what has been said much later - that for the time being I get an allergic reaction to any such devices. But that is just me...

 

[MithLuin]

No, we are not adding a century to the timeline. The Nirnaeth is still happening in FA 472.

Also, we are showing little if any of the effects of 'mortal Lúthien' in this season. We establish her choice and that she returns as a mortal. At that point, we are nearing the end of the episode. It was suggested that there be little to no dialogue after that point. So, healing Thingol's winter and then removing to Tol Galen is what we have time for. The emphasis should be on the fact that she is lost to the Elves.

I imagine that the actress who plays Lúthien will get 'human make-up + effects' upon her return, whereas naturally she would have the 'elven make-up and effects' prior to this.

Glaurung, not Sauron, turns Dorthonion into Taur-nu-Fuin, as stated above.

 

[Odola]

The emphasis should be on the fact that she is lost to the Elves.

But how so, if she returns to live among the Green Elves? She is not in any way accepted into humanity - and neither is the returned Beren, actually?

Edit: Luthien is also not initiated into womanhood by any elder mortal women as is usually the case with a human girl growing up in human society.
She should be a in complete shock for the next several decades... Her new body now does things on its own accord and that without even bothering to inform her...

So how would this her "being lost to elves" manifest if she is not claimed by humans as their own now?

 

[MithLuin]

When she dies indeed, and leaves the circles of the world. We will have to give some indication of that here.

One of the main challenges of this episode will be to depict the Halls of Mandos. We've seen glimpses in the past, but nothing of the mechanism of how the souls of dead elves and humans are handled.

In Episode 10, we saw Angband, and we saw Sauron's dungeon at Tol-en-gaurhoth, so we have to make this very different (since Námo is not evil), but still foreboding. I think we want to lean into the inevitableness of everything - you can't fight fate. You can only ask for mercy, and be denied.

 

[Odola]

When she dies indeed, and leaves the circles of the world. We will have to give some indication of that here.

Exactly, but still this is not shown this season.
And just because the elves "lose her", does not mean that humanity "wins her". Human mortality contains not only the "ability to die" and to "leave Arda behind" but also includes the alienation from nature, the world, one's fellows and oneself - which in turn results among others in illness, sickness and moral failings. How far does this apply to Luthien at all?

She is still neither part of the human Fall nor a part of the human [Old] Hope. She seems completely alienated from any communal fate.

I think we want to lean into the inevitableness of everything - you can't fight fate. You can only ask for mercy, and be denied.

But Luthien has no greater fate nor purpose, neither in the mortal short life - beyond birthing Dior - nor beyond.
The only perceptive purpose for her to do beyond the circles of Arda would be to join the hosts of the Ainur. Luthien's fate does not get connected to that of humanity's in any way on a personal level - only via a part of her descendants and that only with Elros' choice, not before.

One of the main challenges of this episode will be to depict the Halls of Mandos. We've seen glimpses in the past, but nothing of the mechanism of how the souls of dead elves and humans are handled.

Do we really see any of it? The halls of elves and humans souls are separate - Luthien never comes near there - just into the main judgement hall - and Beren is brought to her for reembodiment? So she does not see any of the human preparation to leave process?

 

[MithLuin]

We will definitely want to show the gate/doorway by which humans leave the circles of the world. Beren could be tarrying there, waiting for Lúthien.

 

[Odola]

We will definitely want to show the gate/doorway by which humans leave the circles of the world. Beren could be tarrying there, waiting for Lúthien.

But this is quite short - does this carry the episode? How much is Luthien even interested in the fate of humanity itself to care? All she wants is Beren.

 

[MithLuin]

Lúthien becomes mortal. She doesn't cease to be the daughter of an elf and a Maia. Thus, what we are showing in this episode is that, though she is returned, her parents have every reason to grieve what has taken place. She has decided to go where they cannot follow. There is an imminent final goodbye looming for them. This can be made explicit in Mandos (before she chooses), and Melian, at least, will know what has happened. I don't think we've shown Melian weeping before - she can have a tearful reunion with the returned Lúthien.

 

[Odola]

Lúthien becomes mortal. She doesn't cease to be the daughter of an elf and a Maia. Thus, what we are showing in this episode is that, though she is returned, her parents have every reason to grieve what has taken place.

But this is ca. 40 years away - is this acute enought for the audience?

And this is also confusing as Thingol was grieving - now he is restored - does he even understand human mortality at all? He seems fine during the Turin story. Should he not be worse off now than during his "winter" if he had understood exactly that he has now lost Luthien far more really than even before?

And does Melian understand human mortality at all?
She know about the worlds beyond Arda. She will see Luthien again after the end of the world. So how far has Melian lost Luthien really?

Thingol cannot follow Luthien beyond but he seem totally uninterested in the concept. He gets the grace to die before Luthien dies the 2nd time.

...I do not see any real actual climax here at that very moment in time?
The ultimate loss is yet far way, farther than the whole of Beren's lifespan so far.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

I would like to discuss whether Lúthien's final words to Beren appear in Episode 12 or Episode 13.

Naturally, we get their final moment together and her initial grief at his death in 12. But...what if she whispers something in his ear that the audience does not hear over the soundtrack? We would get his final words to her, but her "tarry awhile" would be a secret still, even if he nods his agreement. Then, in 13, while we show Lúthien's grief and mourning, we could have a flashback of the death scene where we hear what she says to him...and that's where we get the 'don't you go where I can't follow'. Showing a conversation, and then hearing it later, is not uncommon on film. Typically, it emphasizes the importance of the line by building audience anticipation for it. Would this be helpful for telling the story of Lúthien following Beren into death in Episode 13?

I like the idea of hearing Lúthien's 'wait for me' in EP13 but seeing her whisper in Beren's ear in EP12. I'm currently drafting EP12 and Beren's death scene and there's things they will be saying to each other before Beren passes out (to be revived slightly by the Silmaril). The final words to Beren will be intimate and quiet and those watching the scene (Thingol, Beleg etc) will not be able to hear so I don't mind the audience not being able to hear either in EP12.

 

[MithLuin]

As Dillon pointed out, it will matter how we tell Lúthien's story in Ep 13 whether or not that reveal will fit. The audience has to be anticipating it, so there would have to be some 'mystery' surrounding what Lúthien's next move is now that Beren is dead. That mystery can't last for long, as she would need to be fading by Act II at the latest.

So, what is Lúthien's storyarc in this episode?

• Mourning the loss of Beren - we are going to show the impact of the Hunt for the Wolf on Doriath, but most significantly on Lúthien. in the past, she had always been music and dancing and light - now she's quiet, and her footsteps are heavy. She has been robbed of her joy.
• Fading - Eventually, her mourning takes her to death's door. She'll lie down beneath Hirilorn, and then never get up. And so...we have to show how this is her choice, not something that is happening to her, but something that she is deliberately doing. It should not feel like a suicide, and yet....
• The Halls of Mandos - will we see her spirit beckoned or invited towards the West? We will likely see some aspect of this journey, but just a glimpse. Then, she arrives in the Halls of Mandos, but instead of passively accepting the direction of a dead elf, she will actively seek out Beren. There should probably be some sort of barrier keeping her from him, but can she catch a glimpse of him despite that?
• Her audience with Námo - she pleads her case, singing and trying to invoke his pity for the uniqueness of her plight, and the permanent nature of her separation from her spouse.
• The decision of Eru - Námo is moved to pity, and takes this case to his boss. In the meantime, what do Beren and Lúthien do while they are waiting for the verdict? Even if they are still kept apart in some way, they could maybe speak with one another. Then, Námo presents the choices - Lúthien can be reborn and go to Valinor where she may live out her days, or they can both be reborn as mortals in Middle-earth, taking their chances.
• The choice of Lúthien - Lúthien chooses to join her fate to Beren's, altering her being in such a way that she will be able to leave the Circles of the World one day
• Resurrection - Beren and Lúthien reborn
• Aftermath - healing Thingol's winter and goodbyes, go to Tol Galen

If I were to break that up into Acts, it would probably look like this:

ACT I

• Mourning the loss of Beren - we are going to show the impact of the Hunt for the Wolf on Doriath, but most significantly on Lúthien. in the past, she had always been music and dancing and light - now she's quiet, and her footsteps are heavy. She has been robbed of her joy.

ACT II

• Fading - Eventually, her mourning takes her to death's door. She'll lie down beneath Hirilorn, and then never get up. And so...we have to show how this is her choice, not something that is happening to her, but something that she is deliberately doing. It should not feel like a suicide, and yet....
• The Halls of Mandos - will we see her spirit beckoned or invited towards the West? We will likely see some aspect of this journey, but just a glimpse. Then, she arrives in the Halls of Mandos, but instead of passively accepting the direction of a dead elf, she will actively seek out Beren. There should probably be some sort of barrier keeping her from him, but can she catch a glimpse of him despite that?

ACT III

• Her audience with Námo - she pleads her case, singing and trying to invoke his pity for the uniqueness of her plight, and the permanent nature of her separation from her spouse.
• The decision of Eru - Námo is moved to pity, and takes this case to his boss. In the meantime, what do Beren and Lúthien do while they are waiting for the verdict? Even if they are still kept apart in some way, they could maybe speak with one another. Then, Námo presents the choices - Lúthien can be reborn and go to Valinor where she may live out her days, or they can both be reborn as mortals in Middle-earth, taking their chances.

ACT IV

• The choice of Lúthien - Lúthien chooses to join her fate to Beren's, altering her being in such a way that she will be able to leave the Circles of the World one day
• Resurrection - Beren and Lúthien reborn
• Aftermath - healing Thingol's winter and goodbyes, go to Tol Galen

 

[Odola]

I like the idea of hearing Lúthien's 'wait for me' in EP13 but seeing her whisper in Beren's ear in EP12. I'm currently drafting EP12 and Beren's death scene and there's things they will be saying to each other before Beren passes out (to be revived slightly by the Silmaril). The final words to Beren will be intimate and quiet and those watching the scene (Thingol, Beleg etc) will not be able to hear so I don't mind the audience not being able to hear either in EP12.

Just a technicality: How can elves not hear something that a human heard? Their hearing is so much better, is this even possible? And a hurt dying human whose senses are compromised and in the process of shutting down? Would Luthien use thought-speak meant only for him, o.k. But otherwise I do not see how it could work physically.

• Fading - Eventually, her mourning takes her to death's door. She'll lie down beneath Hirilorn, and then never get up. And so...we have to show how this is her choice, not something that is happening to her, but something that she is deliberately doing. It should not feel like a suicide, and yet....

It seems to be fine for elves to die of a broken heart and does not seem to count as a suicide.
Elves seem able to die out own volition - just abandoning their own body - (if not prevented by some stronger magic).
Also they seem not to be exactly aware that suicide is considered "morally wrong" for humans.
[Actually they seem to be as much unsure how exactly human "morality" works as humans are unsure about elvish magic. Elvish way to deal with those questions seems of a different nature than the human approach.]

So, what is Lúthien's storyarc in this episode? [...]

Yep, that works as it vague enough - like in Tolkien's original. The deeper motivations are hidden. The deeper purpose of it all seems unclear even to Luthien herself.
Luthien is simply willing to pay any cost just to spend some more time as Beren's wife.


But it also keeps the original's problems. Like - Beren has no say in the matter - he is reduced to a trophy-husband, a prize to be "won" here. Is he even fine with becoming a "de facto zombie" in permanent isolation from all humanity, reduced solely to be Luthien's dancing partner? No idea.

For the most of the story Beren seemed far more keen to get himself killed on his quest than actually become Luthien's husband for real. Is he at all happy with his role now? No idea.

Is this season's end a happy or a sad ending? Is Luthien choosing wisely or not? No idea.

How does her choice, which seems completely self-serving, stand in context of all the suffering of both the elves and humans that she just sang about to Mandos? Her choice does not seem to affect it in either way for the humans and only to cause more suffering for the elves at ultimately loosing her.

Can she do something for this world from beyond? No idea.

Yeah, her bloodline will be important. But it is also a big part of her bloodline which causes the downfall of Numenor in their corruption (with the changing of the shape of the world and elves ultimately loosing the ability to stay in Midddle-Earth) and become the Black Numemoreans - Sauron most devoted servants.

So how far is a her choice a win for anybody? Only in Earendil arriving in Valinor and causing the War of Wrath. If he were unable to accomplish this at all without Elwing and the Silmaril - then maybe?

O.k. Luthien wins her freedom from the world. But how is this even a win for her? She was not unhappy in the world. Elves are bound to the world for a reason - this is their being, who they are. How is this bond being broken in itself a good thing? How and why?
What is this freedom that she wins actually for?

We have also Elrond deciding that Arwen will not marry Aragorn for "love alone". Arwen has to become a human queen - somebody in position to impact the world and humanity for the better - an actual part of humanity with a very specific role within with certain specific tasks and duties - for Elrond to consider it at all worthwhile.
So Elrond at least seems to consider "love alone" not enought for all the trouble a transition of an elf into mortality causes for all the persons and communities involved - not without giving said elf "something to do" for the whole of humanity.
And Elrond has the benefit of hindsight onto Luthien's story and a lot of time to have pondered it and its effects on his family.
That Elrond is calling Luthien's choice "out of love alone" into question by adding this "condition" to Arwen's, when it was that very choice of Luthien that is the reason for his very own personal existence, speaks of something, for sure...

• ... and goodbyes, go to Tol Galen

Why? What for? Because of what?

B&L have to live in seclusion from their previous lives like semi-ghosts. But alone they would not survive. So Greenelves assist them to keep them alive and to make some cultural context for Dior to grow up in. O.k. Technically this is clear.

But the internal motivation is not. Why do they have to leave Doriath if Thingol needs Luthien so badly around as we have just seen?

Beren seems to be fine with everything now - he has lost any own motivation beyond following Luthien - makes sense - he has died and has been stripped from all wordly ambitions and desires - intrinsically he has already left the world behind, so it is all equal to him. He is basically a ghost with a body. So he could have stayed in Doriath as well, as it makes no real difference to him anymore? The only thing that he will do "actively" is actualy completely reactive. He will avenge Thingol on the dwarves, as he is his nearest male "kin" as a male in-law. But Beren does not do enything else beyond teaching Dior a little woodcraft. Beyond fathering Dior Beren's return makes no sense for himself. He does not grow, learn, serve or achieve anything more...

The problem is, Luthien 's separation problem would have been simply and effectively resolved by letting her and Beren leave the world together straight from Mandos.
Dior is the only reason for their temporaly return. Without Dior their return is pointless for both of them as it postpones only a little the suffering of elves and only freaks of the humans out - if they do notice it at all.

If we do neither show Luthien's ultimate death not Dior, then the story risks ending unended this season...

As the Tolkien Professor stated "she died" is the shortest summary of the Luthien story - that movie Aragorn provides.
And we are leaving this very element out of the story... for now.
So what do we have as a temporary replacement - a stand-in - for it?

 

[Ilana Mushin]

I think Odola’s idea to do something with the fact that B&L are given a second life essentially to start their ‘line’ can be worked with. This works with some of how I’m thinking their dialogue will be going in EP12 after they marry but before they die - they are thinking about the family they will hopefully have. Having children with Beren big part of Luthien’s choice.

 

[Odola]

I think Odola’s idea to do something with the fact that B&L are given a second life essentially to start their ‘line’ can be worked with. This works with some of how I’m thinking their dialogue will be going in EP12 after they marry but before they die - they are thinking about the family they will hopefully have. Having children with Beren big part of Luthien’s choice.

Would Beren having just lost his hand be confident enough to consider fatherhood out of an internal motivation? I would suppose him to need some more time to get used to his new situation for that impulse to be awoken from within.
I think it more in character for him to decide to attempt it if he learns that Thingol always secretly wished to have had more descendants, and maybe even an heir - but Melian found bearing a child too straining for her as a Maia and would not do it again after having Luthien. As the Silmaril is lost untill Beren's death maybe before that Beren has had the idea to "repay" Thingol by providing him with a grandchild instead? Then it would be Luthien advising Beten to wait untill he gets more comfortable with himself first (especially as fatherhood is costly for elvish fathers - it costs their own life energy too, like it does elvish mothers - and Luthien might not be aware that it is far less costly for a human father and that it would not impact Beren's healling much). As she can conceive at will, she can also postpone that if she considers it necessary. But if Beren had promised a grandchild to Thingol e.g. one evening while the two of them were drinking together this would be a reason for Beren to come back from the dead in order to fullfill. Would also explain why Dior is later called after Thingol and not after Beren.

 

[MithLuin]

Yep, that works as it vague enough - like in Tolkien's original. The deeper motivations are hidden.

Well, naturally, it makes sense to agree on the structure of the story being told before working out the details of the scenes. Knowing how long we get to linger on each part of the story gives us a starting point to grow the scene(s), adding the significant details that will add the nuance and meaning. We have to know what sort of story we are trying to tell before we try to tell it.

For instance - what does Beren think of all of this? It makes sense to get his viewpoint while Námo is deliberating - we know we'll want a delay then, to keep both the audience and the characters awaiting the verdict. So, I suggested a conversation between Beren and Lúthien at that point. But it could also happen earlier, when she first finds him. I didn't add the details of what he would say, because it makes some difference when the conversation happens. Or we could have 2 separate conversations, focusing on 2 different topics. Beren is not the protagonist of this episode...but that doesn't mean he has to be totally passive, either. He is a disembodied spirit, though. A dead mortal who has lingered past his time to leave, most likely.

But he can certainly express to Lúthien his dismay that she has followed him into death while also being overjoyed to see her. And while they don't know the choices Námo is going to present to them, he can certainly express his hopes and fears concerning Lúthien's fate. Then, when Lúthien chooses, we will already know what about that choice will upset and please Beren.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Would Beren having just lost his hand be confident enough to consider fatherhood out of an internal motivation? I would suppose him to need some more time to get used to his new situation for that impulse to be awoken from within.
I think it more in character for him to decide to attempt it if he learns that Thingol always secretly wished to have had more descendants, and maybe even an heir - but Melian found bearing a child too straining for her as a Maia and would not do it again after having Luthien. As the Silmaril is lost untill Beren's death maybe before that Beren has had the idea to "repay" Thingol by providing him with a grandchild instead? Then it would be Luthien advising Beten to wait untill he gets more comfortable with himself first. As she can conceive at will, she can also postone that if she considers it necessary. But if Beren had promised a grandchild to Thingol e.g. one evening while the two of them were drinking together this would be a reason for Beren to come back from the dead in order to fullfill. Would also explain why Dior is later called after Thingol and not after Beren.

Well there isn't anything from Beren that Dior can inherit aside from the heirlooms is there? Dorthonion becomes Taur-nu-Fuin, Emeldir and the refugees from Dorthonion/Ladros go to Dor-Lómin and the Easterlings invade there. This also means that Emeldir's days are numbered since the Easterlings either killed all the elders or drove them out to starve, bad odds either way.

 

[Odola]

Well there isn't anything from Beren that Dior can inherit aside from the heirlooms is there? Dorthonion becomes Taur-nu-Fuin, Emeldir and the refugees from Dorthonion/Ladros go to Dor-Lómin and the Easterlings invade there.

Rule over people? Like Tuor and Earendil? Lands change, but people are still there.

Dior will be not less connected to humanity that Earendil will be = both had no contact with humanity as children whatsoever.
(Actually even Tuor himself had none and is was unsure if his people even knew that he was born alive and a boy.)

The only main difference between Dior and Earendil is that Tuor was not "dead and returned", so his line of descent was not broken, he was still in the body that he was born in when he fathered Earendil, while Beren has died before Dior came into being. So humanity has a reason to discount Dior as a human of a ruling human line, while Earendil is accepted as a human ruler by them.

Dior is due to be born 470, 3 years after Beren and Luthien return from the dead in the original. As we are 4 years earlier, so this would be 7 years from now (great! We would have some time to make Luthien pregnancy resemble more an elvish one in duration should we wish to.). Emeldir is still not forgotten among humans nor is her husband Barahir yet - who in our story died about two years ago, so less then a decade ago at the time of Dior's birth.

Which means Dior could very well have been a political entity among humans too, just like Tuor and Earendil will be, but he was not. That last part does require a reason for that have being the case.

Beren ceding his and his line's legal rights over Dior to Thingol would have such an effect for the inherintance of power and authority. As would humans rejecting Dior as one of their own. But still a reason there has to be.