Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Bor is dead. I think I've officially killed more named characters than any other SilmFilm screenwriter at this point.
Script Discussion: S07E13
- Thread starter Nicholas Palazzo
- Start date
Cyclops of Krakoa
New Member
I like what Bor said about how Galadriel is alone even among her own people, it’s really gonna suck when all the Noldor of her generation are gone.
No pressure with scene 16 @Nicholas Palazzo ! 😉
Use of tears on screen....
Here is an example of a scene from Supernatural where all 3 characters cry, but in different ways and for different reasons. Context: girl is a werewolf, there's no cure, and she has no control or even memory of what happens when she turns
Madison is crying because she got a terminal diagnosis. No cure. Nothing can be done. Time to make end of life decisions.
The brothers have very different reactions to this. Dean has been a monster hunter his whole life, so he's not very conflicted about killing the werewolf who is killing people. Sam, on the other hand, has been identifying more and more as a monster himself, so his goal all along has been to save the werewolf victim from herself, to find her a cure, a way out of her predicament. Because he is very invested in saving himself from his own demon blood legacy. And he liked her.
Sam is crying because he's just been asked to put his dog down. Gotta be done, but he wants to be in denial. Surely there is something else he can do to save this person .. but there's not.
Dean isn't crying. He wants to take their pain away. He barely knows the girl, so it would be easier for him to do this. But it's not his call. Watching Sam hurting ... He does shed a tear. And flinches. Because in the end he can't spare either one of them.
This particular scene was one of the most memorable from the early seasons of Supernatural, so they played it very well!
There's a lot of death in this episode, and some weeping, but we should be paying close attention to what the tears mean in any scene that calls for them.
Here is an example of a scene from Supernatural where all 3 characters cry, but in different ways and for different reasons. Context: girl is a werewolf, there's no cure, and she has no control or even memory of what happens when she turns
The brothers have very different reactions to this. Dean has been a monster hunter his whole life, so he's not very conflicted about killing the werewolf who is killing people. Sam, on the other hand, has been identifying more and more as a monster himself, so his goal all along has been to save the werewolf victim from herself, to find her a cure, a way out of her predicament. Because he is very invested in saving himself from his own demon blood legacy. And he liked her.
Sam is crying because he's just been asked to put his dog down. Gotta be done, but he wants to be in denial. Surely there is something else he can do to save this person .. but there's not.
Dean isn't crying. He wants to take their pain away. He barely knows the girl, so it would be easier for him to do this. But it's not his call. Watching Sam hurting ... He does shed a tear. And flinches. Because in the end he can't spare either one of them.
This particular scene was one of the most memorable from the early seasons of Supernatural, so they played it very well!
There's a lot of death in this episode, and some weeping, but we should be paying close attention to what the tears mean in any scene that calls for them.
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Also, @Nicholas Palazzo is the script done and the status post is not updated? Or... (again, and more seriously, no pressure, just wanting to juggle this around other commitments)
While this will likely be a question for Season 8, it might help to have an understanding of the differing motives of Uldor and Brodda going into this battle, so that we can understand that there may be a difference between the motivations of the leadership of the army of Sûdh-Beredin at the beginning of the battle and the perspectives and motivations after the battle when Uldor is dead.
Here was our discussion on the podcast (begins at the 59 min mark):
Uldor is quite focused on the issue of winning lands for his own personal ambition and as justification for his murder of his father - this is 'his thing' and the motivation that is stated in the text.
The army is motivated by loyalty to Ulfang and desire to avenge his death against the elves. While they are happy enough about the promise of new lands that the emperor made when they left, they're not going to suddenly turn on their allies over this.
It was very important to Corey Olsen that we are not asking the audience to believe that Uldor convinces the other captains that the promise of land from Morgoth was a deciding factor in the choices made to join the war. The captains do decide to go to war against the elves... but not because of what Uldor is saying. There is discussion about going back to Sûdh-Beredin, but ultimately the desire for revenge and discomfort with the elves wins the day.
Sauron treats them as allies of Angband after the battle, clearly, but no survivor in the group had any discussion or prior understanding with Sauron or Angband. Their motivation was to avenge the death of Ulfang, which they've done. So, the path forward to being overlords of Dor-lómin is going to need to be a story that we tell.
Here was our discussion on the podcast (begins at the 59 min mark):
Uldor is quite focused on the issue of winning lands for his own personal ambition and as justification for his murder of his father - this is 'his thing' and the motivation that is stated in the text.
The army is motivated by loyalty to Ulfang and desire to avenge his death against the elves. While they are happy enough about the promise of new lands that the emperor made when they left, they're not going to suddenly turn on their allies over this.
It was very important to Corey Olsen that we are not asking the audience to believe that Uldor convinces the other captains that the promise of land from Morgoth was a deciding factor in the choices made to join the war. The captains do decide to go to war against the elves... but not because of what Uldor is saying. There is discussion about going back to Sûdh-Beredin, but ultimately the desire for revenge and discomfort with the elves wins the day.
Sauron treats them as allies of Angband after the battle, clearly, but no survivor in the group had any discussion or prior understanding with Sauron or Angband. Their motivation was to avenge the death of Ulfang, which they've done. So, the path forward to being overlords of Dor-lómin is going to need to be a story that we tell.
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Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Is Brodda part of Bor or Ulfang's group?
I think we can continue to do some work on the Fëanorean storyline in this episode.
In Act 1, we have the reaction of the Fëanoreans to Uldor's betrayal. Not surprisingly, Amras thinks they will all die (and he is fine with that). Maglor is alarmed and thinks it's time to retreat and try another time. Maedhros' reaction is to refuse to retreat and to insist that they can still win the battle (somehow). In the first draft, I think Maedhros' response is portrayed as more heavily weighted towards desperation, so it feels like his remaining amdir is a veneer he is paying lip service to rather than something he truly believes. In the current version, he no longer accepts Maglor's analysis of their chances, and refuses to reach the same conclusion.
Then Angband empties.
In Act 2, the Fëanoreans are desperately engaged in battle on two fronts. They are fighting the Men of Sûdh-Beredin in the south, and the hosts of Angband have been emptied at their back. Curufin now urges Maedhros to retreat, before they are all killed. Maedhros insists that retreating would be just as deadly, so they might as well stay and fight. He's no longer talking about how they can still turn this around and win it. Their situation gets more and more desperate, until Bór and Galadriel arrive with chariots to confront the host of Ulfang, and almost estel-like intervention. Maedhros' stubbornness seems to pay off.
In Act 3, Maedhros responds to the death of Fingon with rage, pushing north through the forces of Angband to Thangorodrim. His army follows him in this fey charge. He is beset by a young dragon and is brought down, only for Maglor to save him by killing the dragon. When Maedhros' banner and he himself go down, his army breaks and loses cohesion. Then Maedhros and Maglor retreat from the field. I feel like the description here is still missing something, namely some sort of response from Maedhros, who must finally acknowledge that he has lost.
We discuss these scenes in timestamp1:04-1:10 of the script discussion.
The story reaches its conclusion in the 4th Act in Scene 15. We discussed this scene from timestamp 37:30 to 49 in the script discussion:
We spoke about how Maedhros would be reacting to the battle and his own failure, and about how Amras is further broken by this. This scene should serve as a denouement for the battle in the East. They've only retreated to their base camp at Ladros in this scene.
I am hoping for a rewrite of this scene to capture more of this - the impact of the battle on Maedhros and Amras, their grief, and how they are broken now. I am fine with angry Curufin, but as much more of a background character, not the central character in this scene.
In Act 1, we have the reaction of the Fëanoreans to Uldor's betrayal. Not surprisingly, Amras thinks they will all die (and he is fine with that). Maglor is alarmed and thinks it's time to retreat and try another time. Maedhros' reaction is to refuse to retreat and to insist that they can still win the battle (somehow). In the first draft, I think Maedhros' response is portrayed as more heavily weighted towards desperation, so it feels like his remaining amdir is a veneer he is paying lip service to rather than something he truly believes. In the current version, he no longer accepts Maglor's analysis of their chances, and refuses to reach the same conclusion.
Then Angband empties.
In Act 2, the Fëanoreans are desperately engaged in battle on two fronts. They are fighting the Men of Sûdh-Beredin in the south, and the hosts of Angband have been emptied at their back. Curufin now urges Maedhros to retreat, before they are all killed. Maedhros insists that retreating would be just as deadly, so they might as well stay and fight. He's no longer talking about how they can still turn this around and win it. Their situation gets more and more desperate, until Bór and Galadriel arrive with chariots to confront the host of Ulfang, and almost estel-like intervention. Maedhros' stubbornness seems to pay off.
In Act 3, Maedhros responds to the death of Fingon with rage, pushing north through the forces of Angband to Thangorodrim. His army follows him in this fey charge. He is beset by a young dragon and is brought down, only for Maglor to save him by killing the dragon. When Maedhros' banner and he himself go down, his army breaks and loses cohesion. Then Maedhros and Maglor retreat from the field. I feel like the description here is still missing something, namely some sort of response from Maedhros, who must finally acknowledge that he has lost.
We discuss these scenes in timestamp1:04-1:10 of the script discussion.
The story reaches its conclusion in the 4th Act in Scene 15. We discussed this scene from timestamp 37:30 to 49 in the script discussion:
We spoke about how Maedhros would be reacting to the battle and his own failure, and about how Amras is further broken by this. This scene should serve as a denouement for the battle in the East. They've only retreated to their base camp at Ladros in this scene.
I am hoping for a rewrite of this scene to capture more of this - the impact of the battle on Maedhros and Amras, their grief, and how they are broken now. I am fine with angry Curufin, but as much more of a background character, not the central character in this scene.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
If Maedhros is downed and his banner is lost, I'd think he raises his helmet to make sure his remaining forces know he's still alive, silently acknowledges he's lost and sounds the retreat. Amras may still want to fight but Maedhros saying they've lost would likely break him.
And Maglor starts writing...
And Maglor starts writing...
Suggestions for alterations in purple text:
EXT. LADROS HIGHLANDS - AFTERNOON
Small groups of Fëanorean infantry and Amlachean horsemen are wending their way through the wooded hills into the valley where their camp in Ladros was set up.
At the top of a hill out of which poke the burnt and wooden beams of what was once a large house stand Maedhros and Maglor, looking out towards Angband. Both are battered, bruised, and bandaged. Maglor is leaning on the shaft of a spear. Curufin climbs the hill, his arm still in a sling.
CURUFIN
There are more coming, but it would seem that only a few thousand survived. Less than a third of our numbers, including the men who rode under Celegorm.
MAEDHROS
Has Amras been brought in? I know he was among the wounded.
CURUFIN
Yea, and he is asking for you. Every one of us survived, though somewhat worse for wear. There is that at least.
MAEDHROS
I will go to him.
Maedhros begins walking down the hill towards the tents housing the wounded. Maglor and Curufin follow.
MAGLOR
Not all is lost. Surely it could have been far worse.
CURUFIN
It could have been far better.
MAGLOR
Careful, brother…
CURUFIN
Oh, are we to be careful now?Was it careful to allow the largest armies in Beleriand to remain at home while we marched off to the slaughter?
MAGLOR
Wise words now. I heard you say nothing of a need for them before.
CURUFIN
You speak as if my words are heeded in council. As if anything I say were not cast away like so much offal.
Maglor looks at Maedhros, expecting a response from him which does not come.
CURUFIN (CONT'D)
Was it careful to remain on the field when we were pinned between traitors and the scum of Angband?
MAGLOR
Had we fled then we would have lost just as many.
CURUFIN
Truly, would we have? Or was it careful to charge into the very jaws of the enemy's beasts while our every ally was either leaving the field or lying upon it?
MAGLOR
You go too far, Curufin.
MAEDHROS
Let him be, brother.
CURUFIN
Let me be?!? You led us into a massacre, defying reason at every turn!
MAEDHROS
And what would your “reason” have had me do, brother?
CURUFIN
Would you had asked me that before your doomed charge. Before this mad march was ever made! Before you gave up our father's crown and the best lands of Beleriand, then bent the knee again to one whom by your own words should have given that crown back to you!
Maedhros' anger is kindled by these words.
MAEDHROS
You will speak no ill of Fingon to me now! Begone! You would have run the fields red with the blood of our kin!
Casting a glance at Maglor, Curufin turns and headsback down the hill off in disgust.
CURUFIN
No true kin of ours!
MAEDHROS
And left Morgoth an easy task of destroying the rest of us!
CURUFIN
Then we could have reasoned it out! Together we could have found a way. Instead you shut me out of your machinations at every turn!
Maedhros does not answer, shaking his head. He takes another long look northward.
CURUFIN (CONT’D)
You wish the Oath fulfilled; we all do. But we must unite the enemies of Morgoth fully under our banner before that is even a thought.
Maedhros does not face Curufin to watch him depart.when he replies. Once he is gone, Maglor steps up and is about to put a hand on Maedhros’ shoulder.
MAEDHROS
For now we will bury our dead and tend to our wounded. I must... I must see Amras.
He turns away from Maglor's offer of comfort, and walks the remaining distance to the tent. Maglor is left standing alone on the hill among the burnt ruins. Maglor looks lost and on the verge of tears.
MAEDHROS
You as well, Maglor.
MAGLOR
Brother, I-
MAEDHROS
Leave me!
Maglor presses his lips together, concerned, but hesitantly turns and follows after Curufin.
CUT TO:
INT. LADROS HIGHLANDS. TENT - AFTERNOON
Amras lies on a cot inside a tent. A blue lamp burns on the table. An empty chair sits by the cot. Maedhros enters, and their eyes meet.
MAEDHROS
Brother, I-, I am glad to see thee awake.
AMRAS
You are not the brother I thought I would see today.
Maedhros pauses.
MAEDHROS
Curufin said you asked for me?
Amras sighs.
AMRAS
I wanted to see you. But I wanted to see Amrod more.
MAEDHROS
I am sorry.
AMRAS
Perhaps not yet. But you will be.
MAEDHROS
The evils of this day are not of my making. And yet... I will bear the burden of them for all time.
AMRAS
You are good at that. But nay, the weight is for those who have seen their last day.
MAEDHROS
...yes.
AMRAS
They tell me that Fingon fell. I am sorry. He was the brother you wanted. Now you are left with us, as we are left with you.
MAEDHROS
I am sorry I am not the brother you wanted.
AMRAS
I wanted to see Amrod again. Perhaps he was lost to the darkness long ago and there was never hope of that... But surely only Everlasting Darkness awaits us now, for what hope do we have of ever fulfilling the Oath now?
MAEDHROS
Maglor did what he thought was right. But had you been by my side at the end, we would have fallen together fighting the dragon.
Amras grimaces, from the pain of his injury and the conversation.
AMRAS
So I have failed you, and you have failed Fingon. He at least need not see what we become.
MAEDHROS
I cannot face his shade now. He will have naught but horror of me, for the unfolding of this day, and what comes after.
CUT TO:
EXT. LADROS HIGHLANDS - AFTERNOON
Maedhros is now alone outside the tenton the hill, tears streaming down his face. He glances down at his handless wrist before looking back up towards Thangorodrim, his eyes listless.
FADE TO:
[This should come out to about 4 pages of script, which is the length we expect for a scene of dialogue like this.]
EXT. LADROS HIGHLANDS - AFTERNOON
Small groups of Fëanorean infantry and Amlachean horsemen are wending their way through the wooded hills into the valley where their camp in Ladros was set up.
At the top of a hill out of which poke the burnt and wooden beams of what was once a large house stand Maedhros and Maglor, looking out towards Angband. Both are battered, bruised, and bandaged. Maglor is leaning on the shaft of a spear. Curufin climbs the hill, his arm still in a sling.
CURUFIN
There are more coming, but it would seem that only a few thousand survived. Less than a third of our numbers, including the men who rode under Celegorm.
MAEDHROS
Has Amras been brought in? I know he was among the wounded.
CURUFIN
Yea, and he is asking for you. Every one of us survived, though somewhat worse for wear. There is that at least.
MAEDHROS
I will go to him.
Maedhros begins walking down the hill towards the tents housing the wounded. Maglor and Curufin follow.
MAGLOR
Not all is lost. Surely it could have been far worse.
CURUFIN
It could have been far better.
MAGLOR
Careful, brother…
CURUFIN
Oh, are we to be careful now?
MAGLOR
Wise words now. I heard you say nothing of a need for them before.
CURUFIN
You speak as if my words are heeded in council. As if anything I say were not cast away like so much offal.
Maglor looks at Maedhros, expecting a response from him which does not come.
CURUFIN (CONT'D)
Was it careful to remain on the field when we were pinned between traitors and the scum of Angband?
MAGLOR
Had we fled then we would have lost just as many.
CURUFIN
Truly, would we have? Or was it careful to charge into the very jaws of the enemy's beasts while our every ally was either leaving the field or lying upon it?
MAGLOR
You go too far, Curufin.
MAEDHROS
Let him be, brother.
CURUFIN
Let me be?!? You led us into a massacre, defying reason at every turn!
MAEDHROS
And what would your “reason” have had me do, brother?
CURUFIN
Would you had asked me that before your doomed charge. Before this mad march was ever made! Before you gave up our father's crown and the best lands of Beleriand, then bent the knee again to one whom by your own words should have given that crown back to you!
Maedhros' anger is kindled by these words.
MAEDHROS
You will speak no ill of Fingon to me now! Begone!
Casting a glance at Maglor, Curufin turns and heads
No true kin of ours!
MAEDHROS
And left Morgoth an easy task of destroying the rest of us!
CURUFIN
Then we could have reasoned it out! Together we could have found a way. Instead you shut me out of your machinations at every turn!
Maedhros does not answer, shaking his head. He takes another long look northward.
CURUFIN (CONT’D)
You wish the Oath fulfilled; we all do. But we must unite the enemies of Morgoth fully under our banner before that is even a thought.
Maedhros does not face Curufin to watch him depart.
MAEDHROS
For now we will bury our dead and tend to our wounded. I must... I must see Amras.
He turns away from Maglor's offer of comfort, and walks the remaining distance to the tent. Maglor is left standing alone
You as well, Maglor.
MAGLOR
Brother, I-
MAEDHROS
Leave me!
Maglor presses his lips together, concerned, but hesitantly turns and follows after Curufin.
CUT TO:
INT. LADROS HIGHLANDS. TENT - AFTERNOON
Amras lies on a cot inside a tent. A blue lamp burns on the table. An empty chair sits by the cot. Maedhros enters, and their eyes meet.
MAEDHROS
Brother, I-, I am glad to see thee awake.
AMRAS
You are not the brother I thought I would see today.
Maedhros pauses.
MAEDHROS
Curufin said you asked for me?
Amras sighs.
AMRAS
I wanted to see you. But I wanted to see Amrod more.
MAEDHROS
I am sorry.
AMRAS
Perhaps not yet. But you will be.
MAEDHROS
The evils of this day are not of my making. And yet... I will bear the burden of them for all time.
AMRAS
You are good at that. But nay, the weight is for those who have seen their last day.
MAEDHROS
...yes.
AMRAS
They tell me that Fingon fell. I am sorry. He was the brother you wanted. Now you are left with us, as we are left with you.
MAEDHROS
I am sorry I am not the brother you wanted.
AMRAS
I wanted to see Amrod again. Perhaps he was lost to the darkness long ago and there was never hope of that... But surely only Everlasting Darkness awaits us now, for what hope do we have of ever fulfilling the Oath now?
MAEDHROS
Maglor did what he thought was right. But had you been by my side at the end, we would have fallen together fighting the dragon.
Amras grimaces, from the pain of his injury and the conversation.
AMRAS
So I have failed you, and you have failed Fingon. He at least need not see what we become.
MAEDHROS
I cannot face his shade now. He will have naught but horror of me, for the unfolding of this day, and what comes after.
CUT TO:
EXT. LADROS HIGHLANDS - AFTERNOON
Maedhros is now alone outside the tent
FADE TO:
[This should come out to about 4 pages of script, which is the length we expect for a scene of dialogue like this.]
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Named characters who speak in this episode (20):
Huor
Húrin
Maglor
Maedhros
Amras
Bór
Galadriel
Turgon
Fingon
Mablung
Celeborn
Gelir
Curufin
Elrhûn
Gothmog
Rhogrin
Handir
Beleg
Maeglin
Ohtar
Named characters who die in this episode (10?):
Uldor
Ulfast
Borlad?
Haldir
Boldog
Elrhûn
Fingon
Bór
Gelir
Huor
Húrin (obviously not really, but he appears to!)
Huor
Húrin
Maglor
Maedhros
Amras
Bór
Galadriel
Turgon
Fingon
Mablung
Celeborn
Gelir
Curufin
Elrhûn
Gothmog
Rhogrin
Handir
Beleg
Maeglin
Ohtar
Named characters who die in this episode (10?):
Uldor
Ulfast
Borlad?
Haldir
Boldog
Elrhûn
Fingon
Bór
Gelir
Huor
Húrin (obviously not really, but he appears to!)
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I hadn't updated it for a bit after finishing the last scene because some major rewrite suggestions came up. It's all in there at this time, though there may yet be some change coming down the pike.