amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
I don't know if I'd go with "more" resonance, but I'd wager a director who knows what they are doing with a camera could produce "equivalent".
Season 1 Outline- Session 1
- Thread starter ouzaru
- Start date
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. I'm not sure that I agree, but no cinematographer am I. The original point made was that it would be more effective not to show it, than to show it, which has some truth in a longer sequence, but in this case, I don't think we gain anything.
But as for 'how to make it more effective without showing it?', here's my stab at it.
The dream starts in a mostly dark environment - a forest at night after a rain, with the trees dark black glistening twigs against a bluish background. There are rumbles of distant thunder. Arathorn calls to Gilraen, from the shadow under a tree in a clearing. She runs to him, but as she approaches him, the moonlight shifts as the wind blows the clouds out of the way. We see, just as stark as the tree branches, the feathered shaft protruding from his face, and the glint of only one eye to catch the moonlight. She is brought up short, as running into his arms would stab her in the face with the arrow. He either turns away, to hide his injury, or acts oblivious about its existence ('they don't know they're dead'). She recoils in fear, and runs away, as he calls after her, begging her to come back, how he misses her, how it has been too long and why does she run? And then we hear Estel's voice call out, 'Father?' It's really uncertain and weak, as if he isn't sure who he's addressing. She stops running away from Arathorn, and tries to find Estel. He is sitting on the ground under a tree, with his head bowed, shoulders shaking with tears. She asks him what's wrong, bending down to touch his shoulder.....and when he looks up, there is a loud clap of thunder and a flash of lightning revealing the arrow shaft (but in the other eye from Arathorn's injury). She screams, and the dream ends.
I realize that thunder and lightning for jump scares is super cliché. Feel free to ignore that part.* But the 'just after a rain' timing is important to keep the nighttime lighting from looking too flat - water adds a lot of visual interest to night scenes and should be used whenever possible. There is no gore, because everything is in deep shadow and only in colors of black and blue. It's 'dreamscape' coloring, not 'real time' coloring. There can be fanciful colors, like how in 'Sin City,' everything is in black and white, except for the occasional red or orange for contrast. So, if Estel is entirely in shadow, but crying tears of bright red blood when the lightning flashes, that's fine.
I am not saying this is the only way to do this - I just think it's possible to depict an arrow-in-the-eye injury without incurring an R rating in the US (I realize that you might get a 14 or 15 Mature rating in other countries, but that's fine.)
* Especially since in real life, she would bolt awake and cry, 'my laundry!' that she left out to dry in a rain storm 😉
The dream starts in a mostly dark environment - a forest at night after a rain, with the trees dark black glistening twigs against a bluish background. There are rumbles of distant thunder. Arathorn calls to Gilraen, from the shadow under a tree in a clearing. She runs to him, but as she approaches him, the moonlight shifts as the wind blows the clouds out of the way. We see, just as stark as the tree branches, the feathered shaft protruding from his face, and the glint of only one eye to catch the moonlight. She is brought up short, as running into his arms would stab her in the face with the arrow. He either turns away, to hide his injury, or acts oblivious about its existence ('they don't know they're dead'). She recoils in fear, and runs away, as he calls after her, begging her to come back, how he misses her, how it has been too long and why does she run? And then we hear Estel's voice call out, 'Father?' It's really uncertain and weak, as if he isn't sure who he's addressing. She stops running away from Arathorn, and tries to find Estel. He is sitting on the ground under a tree, with his head bowed, shoulders shaking with tears. She asks him what's wrong, bending down to touch his shoulder.....and when he looks up, there is a loud clap of thunder and a flash of lightning revealing the arrow shaft (but in the other eye from Arathorn's injury). She screams, and the dream ends.
I realize that thunder and lightning for jump scares is super cliché. Feel free to ignore that part.* But the 'just after a rain' timing is important to keep the nighttime lighting from looking too flat - water adds a lot of visual interest to night scenes and should be used whenever possible. There is no gore, because everything is in deep shadow and only in colors of black and blue. It's 'dreamscape' coloring, not 'real time' coloring. There can be fanciful colors, like how in 'Sin City,' everything is in black and white, except for the occasional red or orange for contrast. So, if Estel is entirely in shadow, but crying tears of bright red blood when the lightning flashes, that's fine.
I am not saying this is the only way to do this - I just think it's possible to depict an arrow-in-the-eye injury without incurring an R rating in the US (I realize that you might get a 14 or 15 Mature rating in other countries, but that's fine.)
* Especially since in real life, she would bolt awake and cry, 'my laundry!' that she left out to dry in a rain storm 😉
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
It's not bad, but it still shows the injury itself. I was never making a case for extreme gore, as the fact that it is a dream allows us to let realism slide a bit. I'm just saying that not showing the injury diminishes the effectiveness of the scene.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I'm much more concerned about the Estel scene the following morning. Not sure what Estel feels that will help finally convince Gilraen that Elrond is right to begin his education.
There are multiple directions you can go with that.
Estel could have some flash of insight or commentary on the world that convinces her that her baby boy is old enough to begin training. OR, he could say something carelessly ignorant that would remind her that she wants him to know his heritage and not be ignorant. He's not a baby, so he doesn't think he's an elf or anything like that. But he might say something about 'when I grow up...' that speaks of his very limited life experiences to this point, even if it's an innocent, 'when I grow up, I'll eat fresh bread every day!' or something like that.
Estel could have some flash of insight or commentary on the world that convinces her that her baby boy is old enough to begin training. OR, he could say something carelessly ignorant that would remind her that she wants him to know his heritage and not be ignorant. He's not a baby, so he doesn't think he's an elf or anything like that. But he might say something about 'when I grow up...' that speaks of his very limited life experiences to this point, even if it's an innocent, 'when I grow up, I'll eat fresh bread every day!' or something like that.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I had thought to do something of the former, just figuring out ... what, is the tough part.
He could be talking about how, when he gets older, he'll be able to fight like a warrior. And of course, with her dream fresh in her mind, her fear at that idea might show. And, instead of blithely continuing on about all the battles he's going to win and how he'll be the greatest warrior ever...he stops. And says something like, 'Well, not until after I grow up, which is going to be forever.' or something along those lines. She would then be realizing that he has some maturity to him, and that she hasn't hid her fears as well as she might have hoped.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
That's ... definitely doable. Ultimately almost every scene I've written needs to be longer. My drive to write concisely and efficiently is becoming a handicap.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Ok, let me explain what I mean here. The reason TV scenes are the length they are is that we need to care about the people on the screen. If they come to their resolutions too fast, no one cares. I'm actually trying to focus on better story-telling rather than just hitting the beats, which is what the current script does. It hits the beats, but if you don't know these characters, you might not be appropriately invested in them by the time the episode reaches its climax.
No, I hear you.
You can't write dialogue for the screen the way you can write dialogue for a novel. Faramir can go on for paragraphs and pages explaining the history of Gondor and its significance to Frodo, but...you couldn't have a guy on screen do that. For one thing, it would be droning and static and boring. But for another, it doesn't accomplish the same thing. It sounds terribly unnatural to hear a lot of speechifying on a TV show. Even *famous* film speeches are typically quite short. The entire film 'The King's Speech' is about a man preparing and delivering a speech, and yet...how long does he actually speak for? (I don't know; I'd have to look it up, but I doubt it's a long speech. Edit: 4 1/2 min. And in that film, it's basically the climactic battle scene. The real-life speech was 5 3/4 min. long, and the film shortened it while making it feel excruciatingly slow!)
So, regular dialogue is meant to be kept terse and to the point. You don't want to meander into a three sentence delivery with a lot of complicated sentence structure (usually). And you don't want to fill the page up with fluff over the 'how are you today? fine, thanks' variety for ultra-realism. People can't just be talking; it has to serve a point.
I don't find it too difficult to write (somewhat) natural-sounding dialogue for a story, but I expect to be able to include plenty of descriptive padding to get to what I need. A page of naval-gazing to lead up to the scene with the actual dialogue? Sure, why not, I can write that. You can't do that in a script, though - the internal thoughts of the characters are not easily conveyed. You can do the voice-over memory thing, where they hear someone's voice repeat something from earlier as they gaze pensively into the fire. But in general, you have to tell the story with dialogue, body language, and camera work [and you only get to put the first one into the script].
But as for creating scenes that people will care about, rather than just hitting the beats....that is what re-writing is for. You have ideas, you put them down on paper, and some of them fall flat. You figure out what is wrong with it, and then re-write. In my first fanfiction with a plot, I wrote a backstory for Snape from the time he graduated from Hogwarts to the time of the fall of the Dark Lord (pre 7th book, obviously). The early part of the story involved Lucius Malfoy recruiting him for the Death Eaters. One scene worked really well - they were playing chess, and it was told from Snape's point of view. One was...terrible, and it was from Malfoy's point of view. I let my sister read it, and she confirmed my opinion - chess scene is great, other scene is a muddled mess. Once I figured out that Malfoy should be looking down on Snape patronizingly and adjusted his inner monologue accordingly, the scene worked much better. Still not as good as the chess scene, but it at least worked in my story. I hadn't gotten Lucius Malfoy's voice right because I hadn't really considered what his character was like in the story.
So, yeah, if you ask yourself what makes this difficult for the characters, what do they want out of this conversation, what assumptions do they have, what does the audience need to know about their background to understand the significance of what is happening, etc....you can usually identify the gaps, or the reason why a scene just does not work. And if you can't find it, you ask the kind people here to tell you what's missing 😉.
You can't write dialogue for the screen the way you can write dialogue for a novel. Faramir can go on for paragraphs and pages explaining the history of Gondor and its significance to Frodo, but...you couldn't have a guy on screen do that. For one thing, it would be droning and static and boring. But for another, it doesn't accomplish the same thing. It sounds terribly unnatural to hear a lot of speechifying on a TV show. Even *famous* film speeches are typically quite short. The entire film 'The King's Speech' is about a man preparing and delivering a speech, and yet...how long does he actually speak for? (I don't know; I'd have to look it up, but I doubt it's a long speech. Edit: 4 1/2 min. And in that film, it's basically the climactic battle scene. The real-life speech was 5 3/4 min. long, and the film shortened it while making it feel excruciatingly slow!)
So, regular dialogue is meant to be kept terse and to the point. You don't want to meander into a three sentence delivery with a lot of complicated sentence structure (usually). And you don't want to fill the page up with fluff over the 'how are you today? fine, thanks' variety for ultra-realism. People can't just be talking; it has to serve a point.
I don't find it too difficult to write (somewhat) natural-sounding dialogue for a story, but I expect to be able to include plenty of descriptive padding to get to what I need. A page of naval-gazing to lead up to the scene with the actual dialogue? Sure, why not, I can write that. You can't do that in a script, though - the internal thoughts of the characters are not easily conveyed. You can do the voice-over memory thing, where they hear someone's voice repeat something from earlier as they gaze pensively into the fire. But in general, you have to tell the story with dialogue, body language, and camera work [and you only get to put the first one into the script].
But as for creating scenes that people will care about, rather than just hitting the beats....that is what re-writing is for. You have ideas, you put them down on paper, and some of them fall flat. You figure out what is wrong with it, and then re-write. In my first fanfiction with a plot, I wrote a backstory for Snape from the time he graduated from Hogwarts to the time of the fall of the Dark Lord (pre 7th book, obviously). The early part of the story involved Lucius Malfoy recruiting him for the Death Eaters. One scene worked really well - they were playing chess, and it was told from Snape's point of view. One was...terrible, and it was from Malfoy's point of view. I let my sister read it, and she confirmed my opinion - chess scene is great, other scene is a muddled mess. Once I figured out that Malfoy should be looking down on Snape patronizingly and adjusted his inner monologue accordingly, the scene worked much better. Still not as good as the chess scene, but it at least worked in my story. I hadn't gotten Lucius Malfoy's voice right because I hadn't really considered what his character was like in the story.
So, yeah, if you ask yourself what makes this difficult for the characters, what do they want out of this conversation, what assumptions do they have, what does the audience need to know about their background to understand the significance of what is happening, etc....you can usually identify the gaps, or the reason why a scene just does not work. And if you can't find it, you ask the kind people here to tell you what's missing 😉.
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Hehe. And do I ever appreciate the input. Here's what my problem is. I know where the scenes are starting, and where I am going with them. I even know what needs to be said to get there. The problem is my propensity to deliver the "armor-piercing line" too quickly. I need to work harder to sell the resolution.
I think that the scenes you are writing do an admirable job of fleshing out the central conflicts of the Season 1 frame. You're getting there, just not there yet.
Just spend some more time with the characters. And then listen when they complain about not getting a chance to defend themselves or not enough screen time, or being made to say something that they really don't want to say. Obviously, if you listen to them *too* much, they take over and make it all about them...but in general it's a good indication of someone doing something out of character if the character complains bitterly about the scene you've written them into.
Just spend some more time with the characters. And then listen when they complain about not getting a chance to defend themselves or not enough screen time, or being made to say something that they really don't want to say. Obviously, if you listen to them *too* much, they take over and make it all about them...but in general it's a good indication of someone doing something out of character if the character complains bitterly about the scene you've written them into.
Honestly, my main concern with writing dialogue for this project is pulling off stunts like this:
"This feeling of age, of a history long past, is reinforced by Elrond’s archaic use of language, a few examples of which are given below:
Shippey explains this use of language very well:
"This feeling of age, of a history long past, is reinforced by Elrond’s archaic use of language, a few examples of which are given below:
“Only to the North did these tidings come”
“From the ruin of the Gladden Fields … three men only came ever back”
“Fruitless did I call the victory of the Last Alliance?”
Shippey explains this use of language very well:
“Elrond’s archaism is consistent, achieved not just by vocabulary … but also by grammar. Though marked, it is never so obtrusive as to obscure meaning or make the speaker appear quaint. It serves to distinguish his speech from that of the others; to act as a continual reminder of his age” (Shippey, 2001)"
http://www.councilofelrond.com/middle-earth/elrond-peredhel-lord-of-imladris/
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
Yeah those bass-ackwards sentences are so beautiful, distinctive, and other words I can't find to describe how much I love them.
I imagine that Elrond would have modes that he slips into and out of, where "I'm telling 1st Age history" Elrond speaks differently from "I'm telling 3rd Age history" Elrond, who speaks differently from "I'm having a casual conversation with an equal" Elrond, who speaks differently from "I'm having a casual conversation with someone who, while wonderful and clever and delightful, is a lesser" Elrond.
I imagine that Elrond would have modes that he slips into and out of, where "I'm telling 1st Age history" Elrond speaks differently from "I'm telling 3rd Age history" Elrond, who speaks differently from "I'm having a casual conversation with an equal" Elrond, who speaks differently from "I'm having a casual conversation with someone who, while wonderful and clever and delightful, is a lesser" Elrond.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
(Don't you think JRRT would have just loved my characterization of his prose? Let's just say I'm not as clever at the ol' wordplay as he.)
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
So, just a short line as an example:
He does not belong to you only, Lady Gilraen, but to all your people.
Rather than:
He belongs to all of your people, not just you.
Is that what we mean?
He does not belong to you only, Lady Gilraen, but to all your people.
Rather than:
He belongs to all of your people, not just you.
Is that what we mean?
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
Not only to you does he belong, Lady, but to all your people.