Season 1 Script Discussion Episodes 6 and 7 (We Hope)

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
We are getting ambitious here, trying to double up on episodes in this session.

With that in mind, I'm going to recommend the following:

Try to keep points succinct. We all tend (myself foremost possibly) to go down tangents, or repeat ourselves when trying to get our thoughts together. We're going to be trucking along as efficiently as possible.

Due to the nature of VOIP video chats, people get interrupted sometimes when someone looks like they are coming to a natural pause for a second, but continues before they get the audio from someone who has started speaking. Most folks feel uncomfortable interrupting someone who is speaking, so I recommend that when you have a point you want to make, type "Hand." into the chat (the thing typed is irrelevant, it just made sense to me). This will give the person speaking a clear heads up that someone has something to say so that they can quickly wrap up their point.

Lastly, I'd love to get more folks involved. The video feed can handle four people at a time, but there is plenty of room in the chat, and we can rotate folks in and out without a problem as well.



EDIT: Completely forgot to post the link.....

https://blab.im/nicholas-palazzo-silmfilm-script-discussion-s01e06-7

Don't forget to subscribe so that you get reminder alerts!
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Sounds good - and yes, we don't need to quite go Robert's Rules of Order, but we do need to keep organized so everyone can speak up without having to interrupt or talk over each other.

Also, this session will take place at 7 PM EST on Saturday evening, correct?

So, Daylight Savings Time shouldn't have any affect on sorting out our start time for those in other time zones ;) EST is UTC -5, so 7 PM EST is midnight GMT :)


For anyone interested in re-listening to the Sessions to prepare for this, you can listen to the discussion on the Destruction of the Lamps starting at 48:45 on this Silm Film session 1.8: http://s3.amazonaws.com/media.podcast/TolkienProf/TolkienProf296.mp3
Some of the earlier material there was relevant to the 'execs' opinion on marriage and relationships/partnerships among the Valar. Also, Session 1.9 will be relevant as we also intend to cover the aftermath of the destruction of the Lamps on Saturday.

At the very least, looking over the Episode notes may be a good plan, and all of those (and the Sessions) can be found here: http://silmfilm.mythgard.org/seasons/season-1/
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Good, good. I'm listening to the old Episodes to try to make sure we don't forget things - and I'm free Saturday evening, so I'll be there.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Okay, here are some things mentioned in the sessions/podcasts that we should try to include in these episodes.


Previously, on Silm Film....
We left off with Estel learning about the lighting of the Lamps in the Hall of Fire. Any other random elves there seem taken with or fond of the story Elrond is telling, but Gilraen was displeased, wanting to know why Elrond is telling Estel stories with such 'happy endings' when real life doesn't work that way - she has been thinking back on her husband's death and we've gotten a few flashbacks. They break for a mealtime, and....


Episode 6: 'Who Will Rid Me of these Troublesome Lamps?'

Open in Rivendell in the Hall of Fire. Elrond begins telling 'the rest of the story' of the Lamps.
We need to indicate that a significant amount of time has passed in Ancient Arda since last time.
Conflict - Melkor is actively vying for leadership with Manwë, who is the default leader but was not much involved in the great lamp-building project.
Sub-plot - The wedding of Nessa and Tulkas

Melkor decides he is not getting the respect and recognition he deserves, and that the Valar and Maiar don't deserve to enjoy 'his' Lamps if they won't give him credit for them. He grumbles about this to the proto-balrogs.
Gothmog, the leader of the proto-balrogs, decides to destroy the Lamps, and incites the other balrogs to join him in this. Arien defects at this time, [and is attacked by the other balrogs to prevent her interference?]
The balrogs destroy the Lamps, and in the process lose their fair angelic wingéd forms to become the demons of fire and shadow we all know. The audience sees this, but the Valar do not see it happen.
Arien [limps] back to Almaren to warn of what the balrogs are up to, but it's too late. [end here?]

Almaren is destroyed when the Lamps fall. Molten fire runs all over the place as it 'spills' from the Lamps, and the Sea rushes in to fill the places where the Lamps fell. While before we had Almaren in the center of one large continent, now we have the continents of Middle Earth and Valinor separated by a [narrow] Sea.

In the wake of destruction, there is much accusation and finger pointing. Ulmo (and others - Tulkas?) immediately accuse Melkor, who acts affronted that anyone would think that of him, and he was clearly here the whole time so it's a false accusation. Others (Nessa?) accuse Ungoliant, as she is known to be antagonistic and have a hunger for light. Melkor points the finger at Arien, who was at first viewed as the witness, but he casts some doubt on her 'crazy' story.

Privately, Melkor meets with the balrogs and smiles, letting the audience know this was the course of action he intended all along.

We will need to decide where this episode ends and the next one begins.

Back in the Frame: Elrond tries to point out what he thinks was helpful in this story not just to Estel, but to Gilraen as well. Glorfindel may make a cameo here, being our resident balrog expert. A discussion of the fall of the balrogs seems relevant.


Episode 7: Should I Stay or Should I Go?

Frame: Gilraen was just 'schooled' by Elrond, but she is going to get back her own this episode. We will see a lot of Andreth in her this time. She will accuse Elrond of 'hiding' safely in Rivendell while everyone else has to face the perils of the world and fight the good fight without him.

We open with the debate of the Valar in the ruins of Almaren. Manwë recognizes that the experiment of Almaren failed to bring complete harmony, and invites everyone to found their own 'unchanging' home where each has their own appointed place in the West, and to continue trying to work together in Middle Earth after they succeed at that project. Melkor opposes this plan, saying that they should not 'abandon' Middle Earth and that all of Arda should be their domain. His language makes it clear that he's interested in kingdom-building.

Melkor forces a decision, 'Are you with me or not?' and it turns out that most of them...are not. He removes with his [few] followers and goes to build Utumno, the 'new' Almaren (he thinks). The others (all the Valar and most of the Maiar) cross the Sea and establish Valinor. Ulmo and Tulkas are not happy with this, but go along with it. Ulmo wants to remember ALL of Middle Earth, and Tulkas would like to just punch Melkor and get it over with.

Manwë (and his camp) make the wrong decision [leaving Middle Earth] for the right reason [an attempt to re-establish harmony out of chaos]. Melkor makes the right decision [remaining in Middle Earth] for the wrong reason [dominion and control rather than healing].

In Valinor, they meet Námo, Vairë, Irmo and Este. [There is some confusion over the introductions - 'welcome to the Halls of Mandos' or 'please, make yourselves at home in the Gardens of Lorien' lead to the future name confusion.]

Perhaps those Maiar who were harmed by Ungoliant or burned in the destruction of the Lamps are taken to Lorien for healing.

The Valar begin to establish Valinor - the fields of Yavanna, the forests of Oromë, Taniquetal, etc.

Meanwhile in Middle Earth, Melkor builds Utumno with his followers.

Back in the frame, Gilraen and Elrond have the conversation about what he is doing 'hiding' while her husband died fighting monsters? She compares Rivendell to Valinor, and he has to explain his 'long' view and big picture to her without mentioning his elvish ring.



*whew* We have our work cut out for us!
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Oh, and for anyone who is new to Blab, you will need a Twitter account to log in to participate, but you don't need to be active on twitter or anything. Other than that, you just click the link in the first post and you'll be there....in 20 1/2 hours :)
 

ouzaru

Well-Known Member
Okay, here are some things mentioned in the sessions/podcasts that we should try to include in these episodes.


Previously, on Silm Film....
We left off with Estel learning about the lighting of the Lamps in the Hall of Fire. Any other random elves there seem taken with or fond of the story Elrond is telling, but Gilraen was displeased, wanting to know why Elrond is telling Estel stories with such 'happy endings' when real life doesn't work that way - she has been thinking back on her husband's death and we've gotten a few flashbacks. They break for a mealtime, and....


Episode 6: 'Who Will Rid Me of these Troublesome Lamps?'

Open in Rivendell in the Hall of Fire. Elrond begins telling 'the rest of the story' of the Lamps.
We need to indicate that a significant amount of time has passed in Ancient Arda since last time.
Conflict - Melkor is actively vying for leadership with Manwë, who is the default leader but was not much involved in the great lamp-building project.
Sub-plot - The wedding of Nessa and Tulkas

Melkor decides he is not getting the respect and recognition he deserves, and that the Valar and Maiar don't deserve to enjoy 'his' Lamps if they won't give him credit for them. He grumbles about this to the proto-balrogs.
Gothmog, the leader of the proto-balrogs, decides to destroy the Lamps, and incites the other balrogs to join him in this. Arien defects at this time, [and is attacked by the other balrogs to prevent her interference?]
The balrogs destroy the Lamps, and in the process lose their fair angelic wingéd forms to become the demons of fire and shadow we all know. The audience sees this, but the Valar do not see it happen.
Arien [limps] back to Almaren to warn of what the balrogs are up to, but it's too late. [end here?]

Almaren is destroyed when the Lamps fall. Molten fire runs all over the place as it 'spills' from the Lamps, and the Sea rushes in to fill the places where the Lamps fell. While before we had Almaren in the center of one large continent, now we have the continents of Middle Earth and Valinor separated by a [narrow] Sea.

In the wake of destruction, there is much accusation and finger pointing. Ulmo (and others - Tulkas?) immediately accuse Melkor, who acts affronted that anyone would think that of him, and he was clearly here the whole time so it's a false accusation. Others (Nessa?) accuse Ungoliant, as she is known to be antagonistic and have a hunger for light. Melkor points the finger at Arien, who was at first viewed as the witness, but he casts some doubt on her 'crazy' story.

Privately, Melkor meets with the balrogs and smiles, letting the audience know this was the course of action he intended all along.

We will need to decide where this episode ends and the next one begins.

Back in the Frame: Elrond tries to point out what he thinks was helpful in this story not just to Estel, but to Gilraen as well. Glorfindel may make a cameo here, being our resident balrog expert. A discussion of the fall of the balrogs seems relevant.


Episode 7: Should I Stay or Should I Go?

Frame: Gilraen was just 'schooled' by Elrond, but she is going to get back her own this episode. We will see a lot of Andreth in her this time. She will accuse Elrond of 'hiding' safely in Rivendell while everyone else has to face the perils of the world and fight the good fight without him.

We open with the debate of the Valar in the ruins of Almaren. Manwë recognizes that the experiment of Almaren failed to bring complete harmony, and invites everyone to found their own 'unchanging' home where each has their own appointed place in the West, and to continue trying to work together in Middle Earth after they succeed at that project. Melkor opposes this plan, saying that they should not 'abandon' Middle Earth and that all of Arda should be their domain. His language makes it clear that he's interested in kingdom-building.

Melkor forces a decision, 'Are you with me or not?' and it turns out that most of them...are not. He removes with his [few] followers and goes to build Utumno, the 'new' Almaren (he thinks). The others (all the Valar and most of the Maiar) cross the Sea and establish Valinor. Ulmo and Tulkas are not happy with this, but go along with it. Ulmo wants to remember ALL of Middle Earth, and Tulkas would like to just punch Melkor and get it over with.

Manwë (and his camp) make the wrong decision [leaving Middle Earth] for the right reason [an attempt to re-establish harmony out of chaos]. Melkor makes the right decision [remaining in Middle Earth] for the wrong reason [dominion and control rather than healing].

In Valinor, they meet Námo, Vairë, Irmo and Este. [There is some confusion over the introductions - 'welcome to the Halls of Mandos' or 'please, make yourselves at home in the Gardens of Lorien' lead to the future name confusion.]

Perhaps those Maiar who were harmed by Ungoliant or burned in the destruction of the Lamps are taken to Lorien for healing.

The Valar begin to establish Valinor - the fields of Yavanna, the forests of Oromë, Taniquetal, etc.

Meanwhile in Middle Earth, Melkor builds Utumno with his followers.

Back in the frame, Gilraen and Elrond have the conversation about what he is doing 'hiding' while her husband died fighting monsters? She compares Rivendell to Valinor, and he has to explain his 'long' view and big picture to her without mentioning his elvish ring.



*whew* We have our work cut out for us!

Having this as a reference should help pretty drastically, so thanks for this, Marie. There's also a lot clearer of an outline as to big milestones and the general flow of the episodes, so I'm hoping we can split things up nice and neat into acts and describe a couple of big scenes and get out without too much trouble.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Yes, my objective in setting out was to have at least the rough outlines of the episodes serve that purpose, but obviously, I am woefully behind. I am hoping to have some time at work to finish editing the video from the last session so at least that is available. Hopefully, next season will get easier.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Well, Nick, you do realize that with all the work you've been putting in, you should be paid time and a half on this project for this season, right? ;) No, seriously, I didn't expect you to do it all by yourself. I can't help with the video editing, so I pitched in with the rough guidelines.

And agreed that next season will be much less rushed. I don't think we should start discussing the outline of the first episode of Season 2 until after the hosts have at least got through the 2nd episode, as decisions in later episodes do sometimes have consequences that cascade backwards. But being one episode behind will still allow us two weeks between our own discussion sessions, with time for a 'review' session before submitting the whole package of outlines. Should be a much more leisurely pace - which is good, because quite honestly I expect more interest in this project once there are elves on screen. And with more people involved, we'll need more time to co-ordinate, and all the work shouldn't fall to one person.


7 1/2 hours left....
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Wow, we got through a lot of material in record time! For anyone who wasn't able to make it, you can listen to the recording at the link above, and feel free to add any comments here :)
 

ouzaru

Well-Known Member
Sincerest apologies for not being present last night. Without getting into too much detail, my relationship seems to be stumbling to a end, and there was some fallout related to that going on last night and this morning. Going forward, I won't commit to showing up unless I am positive I can make it, though I'm not precisely sure how this thing is going to go in the upcoming weeks. I'm pretty confident you guys have got it under control, in spite of the objections I've raised, so you keep on keepin' on and I'll contribute when I can.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I'm sorry to hear that, and I hope everything works out. No need to apologize - we value your input, but if you can't make it 'live,' that can happen in the editing stage.


Episode 6: 'Who Will Rid Me of these Troublesome Lamps?'

Open in Rivendell in the Hall of Fire. Elrond begins telling 'the rest of the story' of the Lamps. Brief flashback of Gilraen making her way to Rivendell with two-year-old Estel.

Everything-is-awesome establishing shot of Almaren and the Lamps shows significant tree growth since the last episode - we have forests now!

Tulkas and Nessa announce that they will be getting married (*whatever that means to Valar*) and there are some wedding preparations in progress. Tulkas asks Manwë to preside over the wedding. Perhaps Yavanna and Vana develop flowers at this time, [Edit: and bees - so honey and honeywine, aka mead for the wedding!] and everyone praises them for their work. Melkor is annoyed that everyone seems to have forgotten that without 'his' Lamps, none of this would be possible. This rankled feeling is driven home when someone turns to him and says, 'oh, I just wanted to thank you again for your *help* with the Lamps - they really are awesome'

Melkor decides he is not getting the respect and recognition he deserves, and that the Valar and Maiar don't deserve to enjoy 'his' Lamps if they won't give him credit for them. He grumbles about this to the proto-balrogs, giving a speech that emphasizes how THEIR hard work has been taken for granted while slipping in comments about the respect he deserves.

Gothmog, the leader of the [up to 20] proto-balrogs, decides to destroy the Lamps, and incites the other balrogs to join him in this. He basically argues that if no one will show proper respecte to Lord Melkor, then they should not enjoy the work that he did. Arien defects at this time, and attacks the other balrogs to try to stop them.

Tulkas and Nessa get married, and everyone stops their work for this time of 'festival'. We see the couples among the Valar and Maiar together. There is some sort of dance [Edit - 'steal' dance], which ends with Tulkas and Nessa pledging themselves to each other with Ilúvatar as witness. The wedding celebration is interrupted when one of the Lamps begins to fall.

The balrogs destroy the Lamps, and in the process lose their fair angelic wingéd forms to become the demons of fire and shadow we all know. The audience sees this, but the Valar do not see it happen.

Ulmo rushes in to save Almaren, raising up walls of water to combat the molten fire that is spreading. Manwë requests Melkor's help urgently to do the same, and Melkor's response is more, 'oh, now you need me?' But Manwë does not have time to deal with him. As they are working frantically to save Almaren, the second Lamp comes down. While before we had Almaren in the center of one large continent, now we have the continents of Middle Earth and Valinor separated by a [narrow] Sea.

Everyone is horrified by the destruction. Accusations start flying, and in particular, Ulmo points the finger at Melkor. Manwë refrains from accusing Melkor of his reluctance to help. Melkor acts affronted. Ungoliant is mentioned [Edit: by Nessa].

Arien limps back to Almaren, wounded from her conflict with the balrogs, too late to warn everyone, but a witness to what happened. She says it wasn't Melkor, but the Valaraukar who did this. Ulmo questions her, saying, 'Are you certain he didn't want this to happen?' and she's silent for a moment.

Melkor immediately throws her under the bus, accusing her of destroying the Lamps. She seems completely taken aback. Very few people seem to buy this turn of events, though Aulë seems thoughtful and troubled (he's at least entertaining the idea and thinking it through).

Varda intervenes with Manwë and points out that Arien is injured and this can wait. Varda and her handmaiden Ilmarë tend to Arien, who will later join them.

Tulkas is upset everything is going wrong, and he lets his anger be known, but isn't much help with coming up with any sort of coherent plan moving forward. Nessa tries to comfort him.

Melkor, meanwhile, throws a bit of a fit - everyone is so quick to accuse him when something goes wrong. Clearly, it couldn't have been him, as he was here the whole time, but just like when Ungoliant was hurting people, they point to him. He stomps off in a fit of pique.

We see the balrogs emerging from the wreckage of the Lamps.

Back in the Frame: Estel is visibly upset by this story. After he leaves, Gilraen is subdued. We get another brief flashback of her arriving in Rivendell and Elrond greeting them, with the statement, 'He'll need a new name.' Elrond tries to point out what he thinks was helpful in this story not just to Estel, but to Gilraen as well, by asking her 'Why did you name the boy Hope?' [Edit - She responds by giving Elrond the Ring of Barahir for safekeeping.]


Episode 7: Should I Stay or Should I Go?

Frame: One or two human riders (dirty, scruffy-looking ranger types) ride into Rivendell. Estel is interested and goes to meet the horses, while the riders go to deliver their news to the Lord of Rivendell. [Gilraen is there and overhears that Edit - we don't need to see her eavesdropping] there has been an attack on a nearby settlement. [Edit - it may be the same trolls that Bilbo and the dwarves will meet later, but no one knows that yet.] The sons of Elrond (and Glorfindel?) ride out to do something about this. Estel sees them readying their horses, and asks if he can go, too - he is of course turned down immediately. It is time for his lesson, so he goes to meet with Elrond.

Ancient Arda: Melkor meets up with his balrogs, and gives them tacit approval for their actions in taking down the Lamps. He does not quite hide his unease with their new forms.

We return to the ruins of Almaren. It is clear that the place will not be salvageable in any way. Nienna is with those who are mourning, comforting them and weeping with them. Manwë seeks out Oromë, and says that they will have to find a new place to rebuild. Oromë goes off to look (perhaps headed south?) while Manwë takes flight and heads west. We see the damage of the ruined Lamps from the air.

Meanwhile, Mairon goes to seek out Melkor, who has gone to found Utumno after his 'rejection' over the Lamps. Mairon hits the correct note of flattery and appeals to Melkor's vanity - clearly, we need you - and urges him to come back.

Manwë alights on the peak of Taniquetal, and surveys the land all around him. He says something to himself like, "I think this is the place," and a voice behind him responds, "It is." We meet Námo, who takes Manwë to the Halls of Mandos to meet his silent wife, Vairë, who is weaving on a loom. She courteously acknowledges Manwë and continues working. Manwë describes how he would like to establish a new place for the Valar after the destruction of Almaren. Námo looks at the tapestry Vairë is working on and says that on his next visit, they will visit Lorien and meet his brother, but for now, Manwë is needed back at Almaren.

Manwë returns to find Melkor giving a speech urging everyone to go to a new place he has prepared for them. Eonwë sees Manwë's return and calls everyone's attention to him. The entire crowd shifts attention to Manwë, and in one instant, Eonwë has earned Melkor's undying hatred ;). Manwë explains his plan to found a new home in the West, where each Vala can have their own land. Ulmo voices a concern over abandoning the rest of Arda, and Melkor seizes on that opportunity to jump in and condemn Manwë's plan - he gives a very passionate and persuasive speech about how they must not leave Middle Earth on its own, but can't help but hit a few notes that show his own interest in dominance. He ends with a call for everyone to join him in Utumno.

We see the various reactions throughout, with a focus on Mairon. Mairon was pleased that Manwë had such a clear plan moving forward, and approves. He is interested in Melkor's speech, but turns to look at Aulë and ultimately cannot abandon him (yet).

Some (no more than 1/5) of the gathered Maiar leave with Melkor, who is clearly disappointed that he did not attract a larger following. The others (including all of the Valar), go with Manwë to what will become Valinor. We see the raising of the Pelóri and other work to begin Valinor.

The wounded Maiar (Arien, Ungoliant's victims, anyone damaged by the Lamps) are brought to the gardens of Lorien, a beautiful, peaceful place. We meet Irmo and his wife Estë (who wakes up to greet her guests). They make it clear that they have been preparing this place for the arrival of the Valar, and we certainly get the impression that the move to Valinor was 'meant' to be.

Meanwhile, Melkor and others build Utumno.

Back in the Frame: Gilraen waits for Estel to leave his lesson and then confronts Elrond. She has spoken to the men who came in and asks what Elrond is doing about such things. He replies that he sent out riders immediately, and she rejoins that that will not save those who already died - her people are dying and he is hiding in his safe home away from it all. The audience should see a clear parallel between Rivendell and Valinor, and he has to explain his 'long' view and big picture to her without mentioning his elvish ring.


That is more or less what we came up with - does anyone have any suggestions or additions?
 
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Karita Alexander

Administrator
Sorry I missed the live talk; I was traveling.
I've read what you have there, and I think that it is great stuff. The only addition I have after my brief glance through is that I think Nessa should be the one who first brings up Ungoliant when everyone is in the midst of their aghast discussion of whodunit.
 

Karita Alexander

Administrator
We could have the dance be more performance style, with Nessa and Tulkas doing a dance number while everyone watches; or we could have a more social-community type of dance to highlight the celebratory nature of the moment, to echo the theme of harmony between the Valar. I can see arguments either way, but I think it would also be fun to show elves in the background at Rivendell doing a variation of whatever dance we end up going with.

A personal favorite of mine when it come to dancing to celebrate is a steal dance, which is pretty common when someone is having a birthday, getting married, or moving away.
Two people start the dance together, and after a moment other couples join in; as the dance goes on, the goal is to "steal" the person (or in the case of a wedding, one of the people) being celebrated. It is good luck to dance with that person. :) The only rules are that anyone can do the stealing, that they have to bow out gracefully if someone else cuts in, and that everyone tries be smooth and stick to the rhythm of the music. The music can be fast, slow, waltz, blues, tango...doesn't matter.

When we did a steal-waltz at my wedding, my groom and I kept trying to get back together while everyone else (playfully) tried to keep us apart until the end of the dance. When a friend was going to be moving far away for work, my sisters and I all stole her at the same time so we could have a nice moment with all four of us. The dance changes depending on who is doing the stealing, so the person getting stolen has to think fast and be good at improvising.

Here is a good example of a jazzy three-way number.
 
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