Season 2: Episode 2 - We Three Kings

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I'm not seriously suggesting the above as the episode title, but they come out of the East to meet their divine rulers. Just saying.

Anyway, here's the link for the script discussion this weekend. August 13, 7:30 PM EST (12:30 AM GMT).

https://blab.im/nicholas-palazzo-silmarillion-film-project-script-discussion-s02e02

We had 3 on camera and two in the comments section last time around. I'd like to have enough people that I can't get them all on camera at once this weekend, so please feel free to stop by even if you can't commit to the whole discussion!
 
Thanks for setting this up!

Unfortunately I won't be able to make it to the discussion on Saturday or the session tomorrow, so carry on without me! My schedule is conspiring against my participation, but I should be back for Episode 3. Would someone please remember to remind Corey to announce this during the session tomorrow?


Let's see, some issues to work out for Episode 2:

How do we want to introduce Galadriel in the frame? What does Arwen think of all of this? Does the audience find out her mom is 'in the West' yet, or are we still letting them think Celebrían is dead? Do we reveal that Celeborn has never been to Valinor and never seen the Two Trees, or do we just allow Galadriel to talk about these topics while he keeps quiet?

The views of the various Valar were pretty well covered in the session. Do any of them need to be talked around? Do any of them change their minds during the debate or after meeting the ambassadors? How does Ulmo deal with 'losing' the debate?

How does 'let's invite the elves to come here!' turn into 'let's invite 3 representative individuals to come to Valinor'?

Timing for Oromë's visit at Cuivienen, the debate of the Valar, and issuing the invitation.

There is a lot of time set aside for the visit of the Ambassadors to Valinor - what actually is going to happen during this visit?

The friendship of Finwë and Elwë was introduced in Episode 1; how will it be developed here?

If 'much time passes' during the visit of the Ambassadors, will we be shifting back to Cuiviénen to see what is happening in their absence? What *is* happening? Has any progress been made on the Diaspora plan?
 
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Should be there on time this time, but I may need to bail a little bit early, depending on when my friends decide they want to leave for Taichung. I was originally planning to just leave after the session and hop a bus, but now there is, sadly, a funeral to attend, so that kind of puts things out of my hands. I'll keep you guys posted.
 
Good discussions!
Questions/issues:
I'm not sure why Vairë would intervene in someone's personal history (Finwë's) in the way you are discussing in clip 2. But I guess he might see something on her tapestry. If elves are permitted to see her tapestries at all. It seems like the kind of thing the Valar would keep away from the Children, since it would risk messing up their lives in variuos ways. But Finwë might happen to enter the halls where she's working by mistake, and then happen to see Miriel in Lorien there on the tapestry. And then she comes back from a break or checking up on a different part of the tapestry or a meeting or something and they exchange looks and he leaves, transformed. This doesn't solve the idea about the gift to Miriel, which I like.

After the last session, where Dr O pointed out that there's just one calaquendi in Lorien... I think we could set up a situation where the elves of Lorien have a festival, and Galadriel and Celeborn take part in it (as does Arwen), but then later, at a more private moment, at family dinner or whatever, Galadriel sings a song in Quenya about Elbereth, which Celeborn listens to but Arwen can join in.
 
So here's the rough draft outline from the discussion. It is a rough draft and probably misses quite a few details we discussed, so please point those out (and where they should go).

It was getting quite late for me during the discussion, so I've added the scenes I should have suggested but didn't as [[notes]].

I've also marked the places to my eyes where we need more content with [[?]]. Please suggest more cool scenes with the Valar to fill the gaps. (I'd quite like at least one Elwë-centred scene to compliment my suggested Ingwë scene, but honestly all ideas are welcome.)

The one frame scene feels a little orphaned to me. I would suggest splitting it into two (one half in act one, the other in act four). This would free up some pages in act one for more establishing relationships and whatnot (it would be nice to get some establishment of [[Morwë]]'s voice, for example) as well as not leave the viewer wondering what happened to that one bit in the frame at the start. (Note, I am not suggesting ending on the frame, I'd place the second half of it around 13.)

Speaking of the frame, I've altered the festival to be about the Two Trees, at least from a Noldor perspective. What the emphasis is for the Galadhrim, is an open question.

# 0. Skeleton/Story Question
= (When something happens), (Protagonist) (tries to achieve a goal). But will he succeed when (antagonist provides opposition)?

# Teaser

## 1. (Up to 4 pages.)

= [[? A scene picking up where the last episode left off: Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë greet Oromë, who introduces himself as a Vala and tells them of Valinor.]]

# Act One

## 2. (~4 pages.)

= Frame: Arwen is in formal costume and is ushered into to formally greet Galadriel in a gift-giving ritual. Galadriel gives Arwen a starry cloak. Arwen gives Galadriel a tapestry she made showing the Two Trees. A courtier remarks on the strangeness of the imagery. Galadriel and Arwen share an informal moment, where Galadriel prepares Arwen for the idea that the festival will not be what Arwen expects.

= The debate of the Valar. Tulkas is enthusiastically for. Aulë is for - he wants learners. Oromë is for - he wants to remove the Quendi to safety. Irmo is for - he is geographically situated in Aman, and wishes to invite the Quendi to partake in Lórien. Ulmo is against - his thoughts are for Middle-earth first. Vána is against - Valinor has not been built with the Quendi in mind. Yavanna against at first, until [[Someone]] points out they would have to leave the Two Trees which would break her heart. Manwë and Varda listen to the cases before and against before deciding that ambassadors should be brought to allow the Quendi to make their own decision. Mandos states, "so it is doomed."

## 3. (~4 pages.)

= Oromë is striding through the Quendi settlement. He is shown some items of craftsmanship, and he takes an avuncular interest. Several children try to approach him and are restrained by their parents, admonishing them to stay away from the glowing giant.

= Finwë, Míriel and Elwë discuss the arrival of Oromë. Elwë has come round to Oromë, Míriel is concerned that Oromë sees them as children and objects to the idea that the Valar are about them. Finwë is undecided/neutral. Elwë reminds Finwë that he convinced him to meet Oromë in the first place. Finwë wants to know more about what is happening. Míriel does not want the Quendi to end up serving / being beneath the Valar.

## 4. First plot point (~4 pages.)

= At a Quendi council, Oromë announces the Valar's decision to summon ambassadors. He selects Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë. Ingwë accepts on behalf of everyone, Elwë is also on board and Finwë goes with the flow, not speaking up.

= In the moments before the ambassadors' departure, Finwë and Míriel argue. She is furious he blithely accepted the invitation, without speaking up about his concerns. Finwë is clearly in the wrong without a leg to stand on. Míriel storms off.

# Act Two

## 5. (~4 pages.)

= The ambassadors arrive in Valinor. They meet with the Valar. Cast shot.

= Vairë touches Mandos's arm, leaving. As she goes, she shares a meaningful look with Finwë who is unnerved by her.

= Walking through Valmar. Ingwë is attentive to everything the Valar say. Elwë is excited, looking through every window and door. Finwë is withdrawn, missing Míriel.

## 6. First pinch point (~4 pages.)

= In Lórien. Finwë stands in the place where Míriel will be passed out after birthing Fëanor.

= Back at Cuiviénen, Míriel is getting on with life without Finwë; however, the Dark Hunter has returned and is taking people again. [[Morwë]] makes a pass at her, she considers it.

## 7. (~4 pages.)

= [[Ingwë is with Nienna, who grieves with him for the loss of his wife. She takes him to Estë who gives him rest and peace for his bereavement.]]

= Brief scene of Vairë spinning some thread and laying out her weaving tools.

= [[?]]

## 8. Mid point (~4 pages.)

= At the Two Trees. Ingwë and Elwë argue with Finwë. Ingwë: it would be ungrateful/immoral for us to not come and be with the Valar in this amazing place they have made for us. Elwë, "you see the glowing trees, right?" Wouldn't it be wonderful to live in the land of light, not darkness. Finwë restates Míriel's case that the Quendi would be living under the Valar, that they have been fine so far and that they are meant to be out in the world.

= Watching this argument at a distance, Vána expresses that she agrees with Finwë to Yavanna. Yavanna, who still habours some doubts about inviting the Quendi to Valinor, suggests she kind of agrees.

# Act Three

## 9. (~4 pages.)

= [[?]]

## 10. Second pinch point (~4 pages.)

= [[Ingwë and Elwë are having a jolly time with Tulkas, while Finwë sulks. Nessa goads him into dancing and enjoying himself.]]

= Back at Cuiviénen, [[Morwë]] is telling stories to some Quendi children as Míriel watches. He tells them about Oromë's arrival, hinting that he was the Dark Hunter and how he took away Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë, "...and they were never seen again." Míriel angrily shouts at him to not tell that story and that "they're coming back!" She storms off.

= Brief time-lapse scene of Vairë beginning to weave a tapestry.

= [[?]]

## 11. (~4 pages.)

= [[?]]

= Finwë making stuff with Aulë. Aulë talks about the knowledge and craft he wants to teach the Quendi and makes his case for why the Quendi should come to Valinor.

## 12. Second plot point (~4 pages.)

= Finwë asks about the war of the powers. Outside Mandos, Aulë explains about the war and Melkor, and that Melkor is chained inside Mandos.

= Finwë is convinced by Aulë that they should come to Valinor, but does not think he will be able to convince Míriel. [[Finwë will echo Aulë's words in the episode 3 debate.]] He is distraught and despondent.

# Act Four

## 13. (~4 pages.)

= Brief time lapse scene of Vairë finishing her tapestry, though we do not see what it depicts.

= [[? Back to the frame?]]

## 14. Climax 1 (~4 pages.)

= The ambassadors are preparing to return to Cuiviénen. Finwë walks through the empty streets of Valmar, despondent. Elwë told Ingwë about Finwë's trouble that Míriel will not agree to come. Ingwë says that there is someone who wants to meet him and that she hasn't asked to see either Ingwë or Elwë.

## 15. Climax 2 (~4 pages.)

= Ingwë takes Finwë to Mandos. Finwë says that he has already seen this place, that he knows about Melkor and it won't help with Míriel. Ingwë opens the door to Vairë's weaving hall and ushers Finwë inside.

= Finwë is awkward in the presence of Vairë, who does not speak. He insists that she can't change his mind if she won't say anything. She presents him a tapestry showing him laying beside Míriel, holding a new born baby between them, lit by the Two Trees. Finwë has a moment of revalation that he and Míriel will have a life together in Valinor. With tears in his eyes he profusely thanks Vairë, who disinterestly waves him away. [[The moment depicted is actually the moments after Fëanor's birth, the last moment before Míriel's spirit leaves her body.]]

# Dénouement

## 16. (Up to 4 pages.)

= At Cuiviénen, Míriel is going about her life. There is the sound of hoof beating and there is panic. Three glowing riders emerge from the forest. Míriel realises the ambassadors have returned. The ambassadors are laiden with swag from Valinor. She and Finwë run to each other and embrace.

(What are all the hashes and equals signs about? I've written this up in Fountain markup for screenwriting convenience.)
 
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Regarding ##7: I know that Dr O suggested that Ingwë could have lost his wife, but I think perhaps that this causes some problems. Dr Olsen said also that we should not see Indis until we get to Valinor (or something like that, the important thing being that she and Finwë don't become a potential couple before Miriel has died). But if Ingwë is a single parent, don't you think we should show that? I mean if he's a widower and all of a sudden has a child, people will start to wonder how that happened.
Reading ##15, I find it quite powerful, but I still have doubts; I'm sorry for that because you've built so much of the outline on this - but I still think it would be best if Vairë does not show Finwë the tapestry on purpose. It seems to go against the MO of Mandos and Vairë. Could you give a written example of this kind of action? Otherwise, I find it strange to have the weaver interfere with someone's destiny in this way. Couldn't he stumble upon it and then, taken by that, make his own image of Miriel in Lorien? The other Ambassador's could be worried about his doubts, as you have written, but then he appears just before the journey back and is transformed, full of confidence, because of the image he has created. He might keep it a secret until they get back, or tell them right away.
 
Here's something I've been considering about the whole Vairë thing.

What if it is actually intended to be a subtle warning, and Finwë misses it. What if she sees some of the dangers arising from the Noldor move to Valinor and that is why she makes this for him.

Or... it is not an intended interference at all. It is merely a statement of what will be.

Bear in mind, mistake or not, the invitation and migration to Valinor cannot be outside of the plan of Iluvatar. Feanor will be born. The Silmarils will be made. The Noldor will rebel. Morgoth will nearly defeat the elves. The War of Wrath will take place. The elves will diminish in Middle-Earth.

Iluvatar will be glorified.
 
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Well... That would be different, and I think better, but I'm having a hard time with the idea of her interfering in any way. I can see the problems with my suggestion as well, because she would know if he was to enter her halls while she happened to be absent, so the difference between mine and your original suggestion is superficial.
 
Bear in mind, mistake or not, the invitation and migration to Valinor cannot be outside of the plan of Iluvatar. Feanor will be born. The Silmarils will be made. The Noldor will rebel. Morgoth will nearly defeat the elves. The War of Wrath will take place. The elves will diminish in Middle-Earth.

Iluvatar will be glorified.
That's more or less why I don't think she would interfere. There's no reason. She is a recording weaver, not an active mover.
 
An alternative would be that Finwë enters the halls where Vairë weaves, but Mandos is there as well. Vairë gives Finwë a significant look. Mandos says, 'She says you fear that someone you love won't come with you'. Finwë says, yes that's right. Mandos says: 'That is not something you have reason to fear'. (Which really means that there is another thing that Finwë has greater reason to fear). This gives Finwë certainty, and with that feeling he creates a picture of Míriel at a place in Valinor he loves a lot - a place in the Gardens of Lorien. The picture is filled with his love for Míriel and the desire to be with her in Valinor - enough to later convince her to come.
I don't know, I guess it's a small step away from taking direct action, but it's more like telling him to have faith than giving him a glimpse of the future.
 
Regarding ##7: I know that Dr O suggested that Ingwë could have lost his wife, but I think perhaps that this causes some problems. Dr Olsen said also that we should not see Indis until we get to Valinor (or something like that, the important thing being that she and Finwë don't become a potential couple before Miriel has died). But if Ingwë is a single parent, don't you think we should show that? I mean if he's a widower and all of a sudden has a child, people will start to wonder how that happened.
He doesn't have any children that are named, let alone important to the story, so I have no issue with him not having children at all. Indis is "close kin" on Ingwë, as I understand, not a daughter. And yes, Prof O wants Ingwë to be one of the awakened, rather than born... so how can he have a sibling to produce a niece? Well, this is one of the (many) reasons I don't think he should be first generation. So far in the plot we've avoided mentioning his lineage (thanks to changing his grief from parents to wife), and I don't propose changing that any time soon. Just because someone had parents, doesn't mean we need to show or explain them. See Celeborn in episode 1 -- we just have him around and youthful, and it works, because his parents aren't relevant to anything.

(I also don't think the fact that he becomes High King of all the Eldalië will actually ever come up; think about it -- when is it ever plot relevant?)

Reading ##15, I find it quite powerful, but I still have doubts; I'm sorry for that because you've built so much of the outline on this - but I still think it would be best if Vairë does not show Finwë the tapestry on purpose. It seems to go against the MO of Mandos and Vairë. Could you give a written example of this kind of action?
I can't give any examples of Vairë in action from the text, because there aren't any. As for Mandos, an example of getting involved: the Doom of Mandos. He tells the Noldor, explicitly, here's what will be, and arguably by his telling them, it came to be. Would it have come to be if he hadn't mentioned it? Probably some, but certainly characters directly ponder the Doom later on and it factors into their decision making.

So given that we've got no examples of Vairë's rules, and the execs have given us a cool and enigmatic character concept (veiled and silent), why not use her? In fact, if we don't use her, then what is the point of her? She's never (as far as I can recall, please correct me if I'm wrong) used as a plot point in season 1, and I very much doubt that, given her awkward-to-write-for nature, she will ever come up with any significance again.

We've got an opportunity to use her here, and show case her own brand of foresight in two ways: the tapestry and it's making throughout shows her foresight surrounding the episode's central issue; and it also foreshadows tragedy, a meaning which Finwë (and the audience, at least until the rewatch) entirely miss. This is good story telling and I just don't buy that it's not in character, since we're defining her character and rules she operates under, and what we're showing really isn't that different from what Mandos does later.
 
Well, this is one of the (many) reasons I don't think he should be first generation
I'm with you on this, completely.
... Ok you've convinced me that the issue I had might not be a problem. We won't get into details about Ingwë's family, so no questions will arise.

I'm still not convinced about Vairë, though. Just saying that something is good storytelling doesn't make it the best choice.
 
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I do think at some point, we need to work on lines of communication between the script team and the hosts. I need to see about creating a kind of back channel to which I can send them anything we changed from their broadcast, this way it can be addressed, either on the next broadcast or by text communication of some kind.
 
Ok, so what I would like to point out on the Vairë issue is that she is not actually interfering here, any more than Galadriel is interfering when she shows Frodo and Sam the Mirror. She merely gives him an image, which is more or less her job amongst the Valar. It is an image of what shall be. What Finwë does with it is entirely up to him.

Oh, Haakon, I just realized that I haven't published the final few segments of video in which we changed the image from one of Míriel alone to one of Finwë and Míriel holding newborn Feanor, the moment before her spirit departs her body. It is an image which readers of the Silmarillion will realize is actually one of forboding, but Finwë (and our uninitiated viewers) will take as a message of hope. Does this help at all in your thinking?
 
Ok, so what I would like to point out on the Vairë issue is that she is not actually interfering here,
I think that if a goddess of destiny shows me a picture of me and my significant other, it suggests something about my future and it will affect my actions, so it's an intervention.

I like the change Nicholas but it doesn't really change my opinion about this being a too active behaviour by Vairë. Sorry :)
 
Ok, well, here's the question:

Why does Vairë exist at all? Why give her foresight of any kind?

She doesn't see the outcome of actions, only what will be. She doesn't know what the result would be if Finwë chose not to come to Valinor. Because that isn't his choice. I like that it raises the question of whether Vairë created this destiny by her prophecy, or if that is what would have happened regardless. We show clearly that he wants to choose Valinor already. He just doesn't think Míriel will come with him. He left her angry. We show on his arrival that she still loves him and that she would choose to go with him, despite her misgivings. It should not be clear in our depiction whether the tapestry influenced the events, or merely predicted them.
 
Ingwion son of Ingwë is meant to lead the host of the elves from Valinor in the War of Wrath.

So, Ingwë having a son in Valinor is a thing that Tolkien wrote. We are free to change this minor detail if we have reason to. For instance, I could see Ingwion being one of the minor characters who is nixed, and have someone like Finarfin take that role when we get to that part of the story (or even Ingwë himself).

As written, Indis is either Ingwë's sister or the daughter of his sister. So, I think there are opportunities to consider the death of Ingwë's wife, if relevant, but I was happier limiting his personal loss to the death of his parents. That allowed the viewers to realize that time has passed before we even meet the elves, which explains how they have an established 'civilization' (well, okay, an existing material culture and language) when Oromë stumbles upon them. This is in contrast with the Lhammas, where Oromë actually teaches the elves their first language. Also in the Lhammas, Ingwë is firstborn (eldest, first to awaken) of all the elves, which is how he got his title.

As for when Ingwë, high king of all elves, will be a plot point....later in this season we will see the party that Fëanor is 'forced' to attend, and if Ingwë is ever going to exercise his position of High King, it would be in a ceremonial way there. Finwë is not present, but Fëanor and Fingolfin would likely be expected to show some sign of respect to the High King. Fingolfin would sincerely; Fëanor would only do so grudgingly or might snub him altogether. Obviously we haven't written that festival scene, so giving time to Ingwë there might not be a decision we make. But then and in response to Eärendil's call for help would be the only two times the Elder King idea would come up, I think. 'High King of the Noldor' is the more significant title to the story.


I have not yet had the opportunity to listen to the portions of this discussion that were posted, nor Corey Olsen's comments on the Episode 1 script outline. I will try to get caught up before commenting further on the issues that have been raised.
 
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