Season 3 Script Outlines

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The palantir will be lost in the burning of the ships, and this was certainly discussed in today's session. We all agree that it would not be feasible to have the Noldor have palantiri during the First Age.
The link to listen to the conversation is available here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/262718355
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
In theory Thuringwethil could start out as a normal Umaia with a changeable fana, and gradually get stuck in one shape that becomes a real body, the way Morgoth did. But actually conveying to the audience that she got stuck would take time. Somebody else in Angband would have to make a comment about it, and then we would have to stop letting her shapeshift before Luthien and Huan somehow kill her.

The werewolf thing is really weird because I realized while reading the outlines that the apparent werewolves in LotR go up in smoke when they die, yet Draugluin leaves a physical corpse.



EDIT: I'm trying to find the point in the podcast where Amrod was discussed.

It looks like you used a version of the outlines that did not include any the edits made yesterday. I know I edited the Finrod and Galadriel conversation (Ep 7, Scene 8), but my edits look like they were not present at all. I continued making edits up to 10 pm Central time because nobody responded to a few of my comments/questions yesterday.


I am listening to the conversations but having a hard time following some of what is being said.

After deleting the scene (not both scenes?) showing the twins at sea, when can we show Amrod saying that he wants to go back? I hear Corey saying what we have to delete, but I am not clear on what we are allowed to keep or add to replace it. Are we allowed to show Amrod saying anything about going back to Valinor? When can we do it? In what scene? What prompts him to say it, since he does not lose the Palantir? If he changes his mind only because Amros wants to take away the Palantir, he would not mention his feelings to anyone, so the audience wouldn't know either.

I am concerned about the conversation about Elves sleeping. I didn't catch whether it was brought up if Elves sleep or don't. IMO it's important that they do sleep: Legolas does sleep in LotR.

About the Maedhros vs. Feanor scene, I don't think there's a problem. Feanor is wrathful and calls Maedhros a traitor.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
The palantir will be lost in the burning of the ships, and this was certainly discussed in today's session. We all agree that it would not be feasible to have the Noldor have palantiri during the First Age.
The link to listen to the conversation is available here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/262718355
The palantiri could have made things a lot easier for a lot of people. And so we will not have the palantiri play a prominent role until the Second Age?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I am really confused and worried about the Amrod and Amros plotline now. We set up a very careful plot, and now... it looks like it will all be messed up.

So:
Now the Feanorians have a Palantir in Middle-earth? That would cause endless problems. Let's just get rid of the whole idea that Amrod ever found one. That would be vastly better. There was no other reason to include it in the story, except to lose it and upset Amrod.

Will there be any scene ever establishing that Amrod wants to go back to Valinor, or why? Will there be any explanation of why he gets on the boat at Losgar?

Will there be any scene establishing the relationship between the twins before we kill one? Anying to get the audience emotionally invested?





I'm also certain that it's not possible for Thuringwethil to be a shapeshifter. She can't be a regular Maia capable of shapeshifting, she needs to be an embodied demon, because she leaves behind a body when she dies. She has to have a real physical body, just like Draugluin, for Luthien to wear her skin.
To clarify, the palantir is still lost when Amrod perishes (not destroyed, lost). The new version of the scene has the twins on the same vessel. Amras catches Amrod with the stone, and after a discussion (where Amrod's longing to be reunited with his mother is revealed), insists that he tell Feanor about it. Amras even goes as far as to say that if Amrod does not do this, he will.

This will increase Amras' guilt following Amrod's death, and also help make certain that Amras does not reveal the secret of the stone's existence to Feanor afterward. So, no. No palantiri in Middle-Earth.

I posted a link to the discussion in my status if you are interested in hearing the discussion.

As to Thuringwethil, I'm less convinced that she must be trapped at this moment in the story in order for Luthien to steal her form later.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
It looks like you used a version of the outlines that did not include any the edits made yesterday. I know I edited the Finrod and Galadriel conversation (Ep 7, Scene 8), but my edits look like they were not present at all. I continued making edits up to 10 pm Central time because nobody was responding to some of my comments or questions yesterday.

I am concerned about the conversation discussion about Elves sleeping. Did Corey say Elves don't sleep? They do sleep, Legolas does sleep in LotR.

The ships were burned in a shallow bay. Why didn't anyone dive to pick up a precious, irreplaceable Palantir? That doesn't make sense.
While Marie likely sent the hosts their packet at least 24 hours in advance, it certainly does not look like any edits were deleted in the Google Docs. Did you happen to look at the document that is linked at the head of this thread before posting this?

As to the questions of sleep, I'm certain that Professor Olsen is aware that Elves do sleep in a form or fashion. I think he was talking about how there is no 24-hour cycle where the elves collectively sleep for part of it.

The palantir issue had a bunch of discussion attached. The concern you are raising was addressed.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
It looks like you used a version of the outlines that did not include any the edits made yesterday. I know I edited the Finrod and Galadriel conversation (Ep 7, Scene 8), but my edits look like they were not present at all. I continued making edits up to 10 pm Central time because nobody was responding to some of my comments or questions yesterday.
I did send the outlines yesterday, incorporating recent edits. However, keep in mind that I had sent up to Episode 8 last time; they may have used the older version. I did notice some things that should not have still been in there (like 'Iathrim' and the older version of the Finrod and Galadriel conversation), but for the most part, these were cosmetic edits. So, yes, it wasn't the current or most up-to-date version, but I was aware of the differences and did not think anything relevant was worth pointing out during the discussion.

The Hosts are likely not viewing our google docs directly. They do have the link to this thread if they'd like to, but I send them a 'hard copy' in pdf format before sessions. I like to give them more than a day to review the documents, so certainly next time I'll be looking for all edits to be completed by the Wednesday before June 1st at the latest.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
@Nicholas Palazzo : Sorry, I was editing my post as I listened to part of the podcast. I still have some questions, though, because I found it hard to understand some of the conversations.

I did say something about Thuringwethil getting "stuck" later, and what we would have to do to show it, if you look back at my post as it is now.

I am listening to the conversations but having a hard time following some of what is being said.

After deleting the scene (not both scenes?) showing the twins at sea, when can we show Amrod saying that he wants to go back? I hear Corey saying what we have to delete, but I am not clear on what we are allowed to keep or add to replace it. Are we allowed to show Amrod saying anything about going back to Valinor? When can we do it? In what scene? What prompts him to say it, since he does not lose the Palantir? If he changes his mind only because Amros wants to take away the Palantir, he would not mention his feelings to anyone, so the audience wouldn't know either.



certainly next time I'll be looking for all edits to be completed by the Wednesday before June 1st at the latest.
That makes sense, it'll probably work out better.
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
@Nicholas Palazzo : Sorry, I was editing my post as I listened to part of the podcast. I still have some questions, though, because I found it hard to understand some of the conversations.
I think you might find putting up additional posts that we will get notifications about more effective than editing previous posts. This has caused significant confusion in the past, and also can make it appear to others that we are answering issues you aren't raising, making the conversation appear even more stilted than forums tend to be in the first place.

Are we allowed to show Amrod saying anything about going back to Valinor? When can we do it? In what scene? What prompts him to say it, since he does not lose the Palantir? If he changes his mind only because Amros wants to take away the Palantir, he would not mention his feelings to anyone, so the audience wouldn't know either.
Yes. The scene when Amras finds out about the Palantir. It would come out in conversation about what he is doing with the Palantir that he believes they may have made the wrong choice in leaving Valinor, and that he is thinking about going back. Amras _then_ insists on him giving up the Palantir, which cements Amrod's decision.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
All episodes have now been posted and are open for editing. Episodes 1 & 2 are mostly in their final form (I still have to add a reference to Amrod finding a palantir into Episode 2.) Episodes 3-8 have been reviewed by the Hosts and they've made their comments. The scenes that they have requested we delete have been marked for deletion. For the next two weeks, we should focus on Episodes 9-13, to make sure they are all ready for a June 1st review session. I would like final edits to be completed by Wednesday May 30th.
 
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Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Will there be a good time in Ep 2 for a calm scene of finding a palantir below decks? I had thought it was enough for him to tell Amros he has found a palantir. Or did the Hosts ask for a scene of him finding it? If so, maybe it might fit better in the next episode with Noldor after Ep 2.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The scene doesn't require any dialogue. While the Sons of Fëanor are commandeering ships, Amrod can be shown pocketing it.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I will leave it to other people to find a suitable place for that scene.

We were going to add a scene, some time before Episode 12, in which Sauron and Morgoth know that some kind of powerful being, not a Child of Illuvatar, is in Doriath, and they make a failsafe plan to attack Doriath: if the spiders fail, Tevildo and demon-lions will go in, find the source of the problem, and destroy it. What episode should this be in?
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I am belatedly adding my suggestions to each Doc as I get to it. Only cosmetic and grammar edits to Eps 9-11. I will be suggesting some more substantial rewordings for 12 and 13 since my notes diverge somewhat from the notes Nick took. So far my notes for Ep 12 have not been incorporated/included, and I never did post my Ep 13 notes.
 
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Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I think you might find putting up additional posts that we will get notifications about more effective than editing previous posts. This has caused significant confusion in the past, and also can make it appear to others that we are answering issues you aren't raising, making the conversation appear even more stilted than forums tend to be in the first place.
Alright, I'm trying to remember to post again instead of editing a post. It feels odd because on most forums I have been to, double-posting is really frowned upon.

I may be present only sporadically today, internet access has been somewhat spotty.


I wish to ask a question specifically about Episode 12. I had suggested some changes of wording that I thought would add emotion and detail to the scenes, here. It seems that in the Episode 12 outline posted on Google Docs, Act I does not incorporate any of the suggestions I made in that post. I would like to ask for clarification why -- is it that my Act 1 suggestions have been definitively rejected, or that they weren't noticed? If they were not rejected I would like to request that someone please look again at my suggestions. I found it a bit difficult to post them in the Google Docs because of their intricacy, but I do not think they are that bad. They add emotion and detail and clarity and are all based closely on the details we discussed on Hangouts. Anyway I am leery of just wholesale rewriting scenes on the Docs without asking permission, more or less.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I could give the 'politicking' in e13 some thought but I just don't know where to start.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I posted my notes that I took about that scene on the Ep 13 thread. I took a lot of notes. Here is the link to it. I apologize for not posting them sooner.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Thanks! But it's not easy for me to match those notes and the outline. I find similarities, of course, looking at that particular part of the episode, like Elrond and Gilraen in Rivendell and Celegorm moving along with Huan - but nothing that equals politicking to me. Should we just delete that scene?
 
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