Season 5 Results

MithLuin

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Staff member
Session 5-36 on August 12th, 2021 discussed Locations, Sets, and Props for Season 5. Here are the decisions that were made.
Here is the link to the YouTube video:

The Location for the Gelion-Ascar confluence (the location of the Haladin stockade):
Plateau above high banks (not too high)
Not overgrown with trees, but some trees present
Choice: Blacks Forks/ Green River Confluence in Wyoming (Flaming River Gorge)

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This particular location is a bit too arid; greenery and trees will need to be added. But the bones are there....the rivers are both of sufficient size, the top is flat/plateau like, and the banks are high enough to be imposing without being...too much.



The Forest of Brethil will be a silver birch forest, like the one in Holme Fen, Cambridgeshire


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For Nan Elmoth, we wanted a forest that could be immediately distinguished from other scary forests.
This primordial forest preserves the memory of the meeting of Thingol and Melian, but also is imbued with Eol's possessiveness.
The tall, straight pines of a forest in Norway, with the branches broken off in a skeletal way and mist filling the gaps in the trees is more 'open' and less tangled than we might expect of a spooky forest in Middle-earth...but that's the point. It's easy to walk in; it's difficult to find your way back out again. The barriers are spiritual, not physical.

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MithLuin

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Staff member
Tarn Aeluin is described in some detail as follows:
a whispering ring
of slender birches silver-grey
stooped on its margin, round it lay
a lonely moor, and the bare bones
of ancient Earth like standing stones
thrust through the heather and the whin;
and there by houseless Aeluin
the hunted lord and faithful men
under the grey stones made their den.

In Silm Film, we will use a location in Snowdonia, Wales to represent Tarn Aeluin
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This painting by Charles Wyatt Warren is from the Nantlle Valley in Snowdonia, Wales. Naturally, we will have to add to those 'standing stones' to make them more impressive.



SETS - Harad
The anti-oliphant gates were well received:
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The temple of Sauron will be decorated with lions/tigers, wolves, and bats, to represent Sauron's pantheon.
This Assyrian bas relief was considered, but perhaps something more Phoenician would be good. Also, maybe some Chinese bats?
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SETS - STOCKADE
For the stockade of the Haladin, we will want a simple longhouse, similar to the type seen in Iceland
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Viking longhouse in Iceland:
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Also, we discussed the stockade wall briefly - it would be wide enough for defenders to stand on it (not a single layer of posts), and it will have earthen bulwarks/ramps behind it and a ditch in front of it.

PROPS - HALADIN

Haleth's spear is a bronze spear made by the Dwarves. It is based on a real spear from the Urnfield culture.
Here is Odola's 3D model of this spear (above) and the original (below):

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For the decoration of Haladin objects, we've been asked to keep the color scheme to muted earth tones. Lots of greens and browns. Their pottery can be decorated, but not colorful. Something like this might be appropriate:
1629088996479.pngBeaker culture (Wales)

The Haladin will grind their grain by hand, and so quern stones will be a feature in their homes and villages:
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PROPS - HOUSE OF BEOR

Pallium-style stole to designate the Wise:
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(Designed and constructed by Marie)

What does the Ring of Barahir look like? Open question! The description is: a ring in "the shape of two serpents with emerald eyes, one devouring and the other supporting a crown of golden flowers"

Corey Olsen would like to see a design with a lot going on, with the serpents intertwined.


PROPS - HOUSE OF HADOR

We still need a design for the Dragon Helm of Dor-lomin. The current idea is to combine the dragon crest with the mask in such a way that it appears one is 'wearing' a dragon's head. The mask will not be removable; if a character is wearing the Dragon-helm, they take on the face of the mask (in this case, the face of the dragon).
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
SETS - STOCKADE
For the stockade of the Haladin, we will want a simple longhouse, similar to the type seen in Iceland
Viking longhouse in Iceland:
View attachment 3882
The type seen in Iceland is not so long as to house several hundert people and actually architecturally quite sophisticated. All those curves and details require some planing and either drawing plans or a huge (boat) building experience of the craftmen involved. Straight lines are simpler and "more basic" as The Tolkien Professor expressed it.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Yeah, and a Norse house may look coarse, but it is not "something clearly more basic" in itself. To arrive in Iceland at all you had to be an excellent boat builder, which, as far I do know, the Haladin weren't at that point in time? If what is meant is a simpler roof structure on walls that are just of wood without the dirt "plaster" over it, that is doable and feasible, but the curved "reverse boat" roof is not so imho.
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You make very good points, but as the decision has been made by Professor Olsen, he would be the one to whom you would have to address them.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Ah, but i've seen the podcast.I mean Corey ALWAYS talked about the Haladin comparing them to Vikings so he is pretty settled with his own headcanon,
But really it was that he isn't very aqcainted with anything stone-age and european paleolithic... he DID like that stoneage longhouse, he just at some point fell back into his viking talking.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Ah, but i've seen the podcast.I mean Corey ALWAYS talked about the Haladin comparing them to Vikings so he is pretty settled with his own headcanon,
But really it was that he isn't very aqcainted with anything stone-age and european paleolithic... he DID like that stoneage longhouse, he just at some point fell back into his viking talking.
Vikings are clearly Metal Age people. Equiped with only stone tools I highly doubt most of them would survive longer than any of us. People forget technology they no longer depend on very quickly. How many of us still know how to make butter out of raw milk manually? And this skill was common knowledge just a few generations ago.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Vikings are clearly Metal Age people. Equiped with only stone tools I highly doubt most of them would survive longer than any of us. People forget technology they no longer depend on very quickly. How many of us still know how to make butter out of raw milk manually? And this skill was common knowledge just a few generations ago.
Sure, i get that.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Ah, but i've seen the podcast.I mean Corey ALWAYS talked about the Haladin comparing them to Vikings so he is pretty settled with his own headcanon,
But really it was that he isn't very aqcainted with anything stone-age and european paleolithic... he DID like that stoneage longhouse, he just at some point fell back into his viking talking.
Minus the ships, the Haladin don't seem like the shipfaring types.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Minus the ships, the Haladin don't seem like the shipfaring types.
But that's the point. To build both ships and roofs that are structured like a ship upside down you do need precise metal tools to shape and cut the beams exactly to size and angle. Maybe even to bend some previously cut square beams. Now try to do that with a simple raw stone axe-cut wood log.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
But that's the point. To build both ships and roofs that are structured like a ship upside down you do need precise metal tools to shape and cut the beams exactly to size and angle. Maybe even to bend some previously cut square beams. Now try to do that with a simple raw stone axe-cut wood log.
Yeah, in our Simulation /Virtual TV show Corey simulated the executive producer/Showrunner who says:" I like Vikings, give me Vikings!"

There's really little actual reason for this other than the simulated producer wants Vikings. It's just a simulation so i don't care too much about it. In my own head the Haladin now have stoneage longhouses.They din't before... for some reason i had always imagined them having some round housetypes, like british celts maybe...
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
But that's the point. To build both ships and roofs that are structured like a ship upside down you do need precise metal tools to shape and cut the beams exactly to size and angle. Maybe even to bend some previously cut square beams. Now try to do that with a simple raw stone axe-cut wood log.
Well, on the other hand, how well do stone weapons hold up against heavily-armored Orcs? So Stone-age tools don't mesh well.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Yeah, in our Simulation /Virtual TV show Corey simulated the executive producer/Showrunner who says:" I like Vikings, give me Vikings!"

There's really little actual reason for this other than the simulated producer wants Vikings. It's just a simulation so i don't care too much about it. In my own head the Haladin now have stoneage longhouses.They din't before... for some reason i had always imagined them having some round housetypes, like british celts maybe...
Yeah, the round houses are typically British Isles prehistory - it is not that they were not present on the continent at all at that time, but to a far lesser extent.

Well, on the other hand, how well do stone weapons hold up against heavily-armored Orcs? So Stone-age tools don't mesh well.
Actually, stone tools quite are good for killing or indisciminative destruction. Even a good sling can be very effective with stones. But stone tools are much less suitable for fine or precise work though.

In Norway, longhouses were introduced around 2000 BC, during the late Neolitic. A reconstruction of the earliest type can be found in this article: https://www.norgeshistorie.no/bronsealder/0319-langhuset-jordbrukernes-sentrum-i-3000-ar.html
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Do you have the means to find the longest ones? So about 50-70 m or longer?
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
Well, on the other hand, how well do stone weapons hold up against heavily-armored Orcs? So Stone-age tools don't mesh well.
Actually, stone tools quite are good for killing or indisciminative destruction. Even a good sling can be very effective with stones. But stone tools are much less suitable for fine or precise work though.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Actually, stone tools quite are good for killing or indisciminative destruction. Even a good sling can be very effective with stones. But stone tools are much less suitable for fine or precise work though.
But against plate armor?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
The Orcs of Angband have mail and splint armour.

The Haladin have some bronze weapons and some traded weapons of dwarf origin as well...

Still they are in a bad position. Worse than really backward germanic tribes who had little to no armour and mostly only spears against roman legions. That's the idea.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
But against plate armor?
Yeap. Throw a enough heavy and hard stone againt any helmet, you'll cause a concussion. Armor - like chainmail, is more against cuts from (metal) blades, to avoid infection, which was very problematic before antibiotics and understanding higene. A stone coming with high enough impact will make a dent in it, or even rip it open making the armor cut the wearer. Stones are very effective in causing destruction, that is why catapults work.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Yeap. Throw a enough heavy and hard stone againt any helmet, you'll cause a concussion. Armor - like chainmail, is more against cuts from (metal) blades, to avoid infection, which was very problematic before antibiotics and understanding higene. A stone coming with high enough impact will make a dent in it, or even rip it open making the armor cut the wearer. Stones are very effective in causing destruction, that is why catapults work.
Chainmail,is against cuts and piercing because these are not very healthy in itself. Slings are very effective, but large shields usually do pretty good against them. Our Haladin do not have catapults...

A guy in chainmail is very hard to wound by anything else than concussion. The Haladin better avoid open field battle and keep the orcs at a distance
 
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