Session 1.10

Now we need to be careful so that we get Sauron's story right. Maybe it's best if Melkor finds Sauron instead. Like this: Aulë and his followers are over in Middle-earth for some reason. Exploring, trying to heal some damage or something. And Melkor sneaks up on Sauron, because he feels that this Maia likes him, and he makes a show of being left behind and ill treated. Sauron could ask him to come over to Valinor, he could suggest everybody would like him to come. Melkor asks him what it's like over there, and so Sauron tells him. And as he is being told about Valinor, it's glory and it's defence, his hatred and envy grows. He asks Sauron about the defence and wonders aloud what that is for, who is the enemy? Of course He, Melkor is the enemy. Who else could have the power to threaten them? He makes Sauron understand the cowardness in this, and the self-righteousness in the actions of Manwë. Maybe Sauron is hesitant about his description of the other Valar, so Melkor says alright - go back there and watch what they are doing, listen to what they are thinking, and come back to me and say that they are not greedy cowards and hypocrites... And so Sauron becomes Melkor's spy.
 
I do like the idea of planning this out as a long-term seduction.

We should see Mairon working on the Lamps with Aulë and Melkor. And now, we should see an interaction between them, but certainly make it seem that Mairon is loyal to Aulë and the Valar at this point. IF Aulë has made any grumbling impatient remarks - perhaps about the inefficiency or misunderstanding of some of the other Valar - then Mairon could either agree with him, or try a 'what can you do?' approach. This should be the first meeting of Melkor and Mairon one-on-one, and I do like the idea of Mairon trying to persuade Melkor back to the side of the Valar. Persuasion and flattery are his strengths, after all! But Melkor should hit his buttons, too, planting the seeds for his later desertion. Does Mairon join Melkor prior to the War to Begin All Wars? Does he fight against the Valar? If so....what happens to him?

I ask, because a Sauron left to his own devices while his boss is imprisoned for a few ages would get a bit big for his britches. He'd take over what was left of Utumno/Angband/Balrogs/Orcs and carve out his own little kingdom in Middle Earth. Clearly, he does not do this. So....where is he between the War and Morgoth's return to Angband? We know the balrogs come out to help when they hear their master's cry (and fight off Ungoliant for him)...but we don't see Sauron until the fall of Minas Tirith, really. So....what is he up to? Is he still pretending to be on the side of the Valar and only defects after the destruction of the Trees? That seems a bit...late in the game. But we need to know the plan to figure how much needs to be prefigured now.

We could have him go bad, disappear in the War, and then not appear until 3 seasons later, like 'surprise, I'm back!' But....what is he doing?
 
I believe Sauron becomes lieutenant of Angband before the first war. In the published Silmarillion that happens after Aulë has created the dwarves, when Melkor pretty much is the Lord of Middle-earth. Of course, in that story we have war from the very beginning.
But if Sauron goes back to Valinor with his mind poisoned by Melkor's words, perhaps not yet completely turned but inclined to support Melkor to some degree, liking him, impressed by him, and then follows almost firsthand how Aulë is forgiven for his hubris, he could feel that Melkor has been wronged, and then go to him. He should then be in a state of uncertainty, I mean he doesn't know exactly what the consequences will be or if he is playing his cards right. Melkor realises this and sets him up as lieutenant of Angband to boost his confidence and make him sure he has made the right choice.
 
Last edited:
I think there is more to be done with Melkor at this point. And I think we must bring in Sauron here. Let's have Mairon come over to Middle-earth, perhaps along with Aulë, who seems to go there from time to time (after all, it will be in Middle-earth that he shapes the dwarves). He could look for Melkor, well, he could just go to Utumno, and tell Melkor of what has been going on in Valinor. I'm particularly thinking of the Pelóri Mountains of Defence. They will be a signal to Melkor that Manwë is considering hostile action. So, as a reaction to this, he decides to build Angband. My suggestion is that he does this in sectret, and that it takes him some time, so that the fortress is finished when Sauron defects after Aulë has repented.
Just a small point in terms of altering details for the benefit of the audience. I think Melkor should only have one stronghold.
I am even confused as to the difference between Utumno and Angband. For the audience's sake contract it into one stronghold with no name change. Just the character of the stronghold can change as Melkor descends into cruelty and megalomania.
 
I think Mairon's ambition needs to be highlighted in this episode. Melkor needs to make promises that far exceed Mairon's responsibilities with Aule and if he doesn't accept the offer at once it can carry over a few episodes as we see how he is passes over by Aule in favour of others. His resentment, like Melkor's needs to build and he needs to be portrayed as very ambitious (you don't get to be CEO without being ambitious).
I know this is getting ahead, but I think just before Melkor is chained, he and Mairon should have a moment when Mairon's name changes to Sauron and he is entrusted with keeping things running until Melkor returns (Melkor has every intention of returning) to keep away from the danger MithLuin mentioned of Sauron getting too big for his britches. If Melkor relinquishes his realm rather than having it taken from him that could make all the difference to Sauron making a later takeover bid.
Discussing further ahead is important because every character has a story arc. We can't treat every episode in isolation.
 
If we can only have one fortress for Melkor, I vote we do it in a way that juuuust skirts not changing the story.

Melkor, in this current episode, is seen to have a 'fair' stronghold in the north. It could even be an ice palace, if we like. Perhaps it is not named, but it is clearly where Melkor lives with the beginnings of a court (fallen balrogs and...?).

Starting...nowish....Melkor starts fortifying it. The 'pretty' palace is being replaced by sheer stone walls and iron battlements. He is seen to be deep underground when we see him within this fortress. And thus Angband, the Hells of Iron, comes to be.

If we only get one name, it's Angband, not Utumno. Alternately, it's Utumno this season, and Angband when he returns to Middle Earth at the end of Season 2. But Utumno is something that predates the elves and is nearly entirely destroyed in this War to Begin All Wars. So if we are going to lose one...that is what is lost. This is leaving aside Thangorodrim..... (Tolkien and names - what can you do?)



Something to keep in mind is that SO much of this latter half of the first season is anticipating the arrival of the Children. We know that Aulë gets impatient and nearly falls. We know the Valar are finally galvanized into fighting a war over mastery of Middle Earth because of this anticipation. What is Melkor doing? Are we going to have him create orcs the way Aulë creates the dwarves? (Recognizing how disastrous that would be to the 'Melkor can't create, only twist others' creations' theme.) Are we going to have him torturing or tormenting the spirits of the Maiar who follow him into possessing beasts or something? He'll need an army for the war, and he can't be passive in assembling it - his own power has to go into 'making' his followers. So...what is it, then?
 
I'm not at all comfortable with the idea of just Utumno or just one stronghold, or in any way simplifying this. I don't think it's necessary. Please, let's not go there. I will be back with arguments if needed.
 
While I think that MithLuin's idea is creative and certainly has merit, I am not entirely certain why we would need to go to such lengths. In the Silmarillion, Angband is clearly established by the time of the chaining of Melkor, and Sauron commands it. I just read it over a few moments ago. Moreover, the insinuation seems to be that while the Valar are aware of Sauron's defection, they do not know the location of Angmar when they come for Melkor, because it specifically says that they did not find Sauron. If we begin the process of Sauron's defection in this episode, we would need to have completed it some time before the 'War to Begin All Wars'. This would give Sauron time to have at least begun the construction of Angband, under Melkor's orders. We could even occasionally see some friction between Gothmog and Sauron now and again, with Gothmog insisting that they attempt to free Melkor, and Sauron more calculating, willing to bide his time until Melkor shows himself. Gothmog can be jealous of Sauron's quick rise to power. After all, did he not clearly show his devotion with the destruction of the Lamps?
 
They addressed the 'Utumno and Angband' question in the beginning of today's session - they want them both in, as contrasts.
 
They addressed the 'Utumno and Angband' question in the beginning of today's session - they want them both in, as contrasts.
This is EXACTLY the type of thing that makes me wish the downloads would come up sooner! I am intrigued but can't add anything meaningful since there aren't even episode notes, let alone a podcast, and the next episode is coming up in the morning....
 
Good work!
One thing I'm thinking about is that as I've understood things, Olórin dwelled in the gardens of Lorien, but he might not have been one of Irmo's Maiar. (Estë has her dwelling there on her isle, he might be her servant?) He was also often visiting Nienna's house. And when the Istari were chosen, he was not Irmo's choice, but Manwë and Varda spoke for him. I'm not saying it's wrong to make him Irmo's Maia, you probably thought this through, but I wanted to bring this up anyway. I think it's unclear.
 
I agree that it's not entirely clear who Olorin 'belonged' to. Making him Irmo's seemed to fit with the published Silmarillion. Giving him this diplomatic task to work together with Manwë gives us a reason for Manwë to ask for him by name later. But there are other possibilities, of course.
 
Apparently (I'm quoting the internet now and not the book, it's sloppy - sorry) Christopher Tolkien comments on the issue of the Istari Maiar: "There are here also some rough tables relating the names of the Istari to the names of the Valar: Olorin to Manwe and Varda, Curumo to Aule, Aiwendil to Yavanna, Alatar to Orome, and Pallando also to Orome (but this replaces Pallando to Mandos and Nienna)."
This does not make things exactly clear, especially since JRR changed his mind on these kinds of details now and again.
In the PubSil, we learn that Melian also dwells in Lorien. But she served both Estë and Vána. So the Maiar don't have to serve just one Vala, and that should apply to Olórin as well. it seems also that the Valar have a strong affiliation with something, but that the Maiar are not as closely bound to the same thing (so Sauron is a great smith because he learned from Aulë, but basically, he could do anything he liked). Some Maiar are of course very tightly tied to their Vala - Ilmarë and Eonwë, most clearly. But it doesn't seem to be a definite thing.
I think we can solve this without changing very much in your outline. If Irmo presents him, saying something like "I know of a Maia" or even better: "have you noticed the Maia Olórin - he is the wisest of them all", that would let us keep the connection to Lorien and still not tie him too closely to Irmo.
 
Yes, that passage is from 'The Istari' in Unfinished Tales, and appears in the notes after the main essay. It is not clear to me (or to Christopher Tolkien, apparently) whether this chart is meant to show which Vala each of the Istari was attached to, or rather, which of the Valar spoke up for them and chose them in the council he had just described. In that Council, Manwë is the one who chooses Olórin to go, after Curumo and Alatar have been put forward, and Varda comments 'Not the Third,' suggesting that she has chosen him as the leader of the Istari. So, certainly, we want Manwë to send Olórin in TA 1000, which is why it is so important that Manwë see Olórin as an emissary now. It is less clear to me that he need be one of Manwë's people.

Here is what the published Silmarillion says about Olórin (leaving aside 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age):
Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. He too [ie, like Melian] dwelt in Lorien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience. Of Melian much is told in the Quenta Silmarillion. But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.
I agree that dwelling in Lorien does not necessarily mean that a Maia is of the people of Irmo or Estë, though that would seem likely. Frodo did see Gandalf imprisoned at Orthanc in a dream, so it is possible to make some tenuous connection between Gandalf and dreams, if you wanted to, but I think that Frodo's 'meaningful' dreams are not connected to Gandalf and it's not necessary to go that route. More significantly, we would have had no reason to see Olórin on screen before this episode, and thus it seems unlikely that Manwë would know him (especially if he's been living in Lorien, which was just introduced at the end of the previous episode). Conversely, if he's been one of Manwë's people all along, it seems unlikely that Irmo would know who he is (and we wanted Fëanturi in this episode).

But I (in general) am in favor of erring on the side of permitting all interpretations permitted by the text. So, if there is ambiguity in the text, we should at least attempt to preserve that ambiguity and allow others to draw their own conclusions (when possibile - we're going to have to make decisions about whether Orodreth is Finrod's brother or his nephew, and the lineage of Gil-galad cannot be left up in the air). So I will definitely make that change where Irmo suggests him, but does not 'claim' him.
 
Back
Top