I'm not in panic, just wondering. And I think we should have a new thread.
Session 1.11
- Thread starter Phillip Menzies
- Start date
Regarding Mairon: I think that when he realizes that there is going to be a war, he tries to get to Melkor to warn him, to give Melkor an advantage in the war. he might get to Melkor in time or not. If he does, Melkor will tell him to go to Angband and take command of the balrogs and beasts until further notice. If Mairon does not get to Melkor before the Valar, he has to somehow decide for himself that he is the lieutenant of Angband. That seems to be a problematic alternative. So I suggest that Mairon has enough time to get to Melkor, enlist as his second in command and establish himself in Angband with Melkor's blessing (and by his orders).
About Aulë: Maybe we could have Eru's intervention done as some kind of flashback. Aulë could suddenly get a vision of the music and in that vision hear Eru's voice. We have heard his voice in that context, right? It's not like it is a memory because Eru adresses Aulës transgression, but he puts him in a state in which it's natural to hear him speak.
About Aulë: Maybe we could have Eru's intervention done as some kind of flashback. Aulë could suddenly get a vision of the music and in that vision hear Eru's voice. We have heard his voice in that context, right? It's not like it is a memory because Eru adresses Aulës transgression, but he puts him in a state in which it's natural to hear him speak.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I really do like Haakon's idea of having Eru approach Aule in a vision, though I wonder how Aule's threatened destruction of the dwarves would work in that way. If we simply have Eru's voice speaking to Aule, it makes it simple, if a little hokey.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I'm having trouble seeing it in my head for some reason. Is there an example I can look for that you can think of off the top of your head?
The Vision of the Timeless Halls need not fill the screen. It can have a 'border' of some sort, with the dark cave workshop with the dwarves still clearly being the setting.
Basically, this is a variation on having the Voice of Iluvatar come from a dark corner of the workshop, and I do think it an improvement to have it coming from...light, not darkness.
Most religious visions interact with the actual surroundings of the people experiencing them, to some extent. To go with a famous example, the children of Fatima described the Virgin Mary as 'standing' on the holm oak tree. Clouds and halos of light would be typical boundaries.
Basically, this is a variation on having the Voice of Iluvatar come from a dark corner of the workshop, and I do think it an improvement to have it coming from...light, not darkness.
Most religious visions interact with the actual surroundings of the people experiencing them, to some extent. To go with a famous example, the children of Fatima described the Virgin Mary as 'standing' on the holm oak tree. Clouds and halos of light would be typical boundaries.
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For Mary as the subject experiencing the vision, rather than the subject of the vision, see the Annunciation in Art:
El Greco seems to have several versions of the Annunciation, and I worry for Mary in some of them....
As a side note, it is very popular in recent adaptations to handle religious visions as 'up to the viewer' did-they-or-didn't-they. So, the 'cop-out' of a column of light in the first image rather than an angel with a clearly defined bodily form. Or, Joan of Arc can hear her voices, but you the viewer can't, raising the question of whether or not her experience is real or in her head. This is likely done to avoid being too hokey (you don't hear the voices in his head in Red Dragon, either, and that has nothing to do with God), but is also in part meant to avoid proselytizing.
While that may be important for handling some religious topics, we really don't need to employ any of that with Iluvatar. The Valar have met the guy, so there isn't this question of 'Is it real, though?' going on at all. I can understand the urge to avoid anthropomorphizing him too much (certainly in Season 1, when the Valar don't even look human, it would be silly to show him as an old man with a beard). But...we don't have to make it seem as if this is something that just happens in Aulë's imagination, either - he can really be there, talking to Aulë. In fact, we can prefigure this by having some hint of this during Ossë's reconciliation with Uinen where a musical motif and Ossë pausing to calm down let us know that someone else is involved in the scene. Very subtle and open to interpretation....but then this happens with Aulë, and we get a glimpse of what that would have been like had we seen the earlier scene through Ossë's eyes. [The most blatant I am willing to go is having Uinen exclaim, 'You remember the harmony of the Music!' or something like that.]
So, uh, yeah....avoiding being hokey. Very important. Um.
El Greco seems to have several versions of the Annunciation, and I worry for Mary in some of them....
As a side note, it is very popular in recent adaptations to handle religious visions as 'up to the viewer' did-they-or-didn't-they. So, the 'cop-out' of a column of light in the first image rather than an angel with a clearly defined bodily form. Or, Joan of Arc can hear her voices, but you the viewer can't, raising the question of whether or not her experience is real or in her head. This is likely done to avoid being too hokey (you don't hear the voices in his head in Red Dragon, either, and that has nothing to do with God), but is also in part meant to avoid proselytizing.
While that may be important for handling some religious topics, we really don't need to employ any of that with Iluvatar. The Valar have met the guy, so there isn't this question of 'Is it real, though?' going on at all. I can understand the urge to avoid anthropomorphizing him too much (certainly in Season 1, when the Valar don't even look human, it would be silly to show him as an old man with a beard). But...we don't have to make it seem as if this is something that just happens in Aulë's imagination, either - he can really be there, talking to Aulë. In fact, we can prefigure this by having some hint of this during Ossë's reconciliation with Uinen where a musical motif and Ossë pausing to calm down let us know that someone else is involved in the scene. Very subtle and open to interpretation....but then this happens with Aulë, and we get a glimpse of what that would have been like had we seen the earlier scene through Ossë's eyes. [The most blatant I am willing to go is having Uinen exclaim, 'You remember the harmony of the Music!' or something like that.]
So, uh, yeah....avoiding being hokey. Very important. Um.
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I always saw the intervention of Iluvatar in this instance as being more akin to a 'Burning Bush' moment rather than as a vision that sort of takes Aule out of reality.
In fact, speaking of this has created something of an explosion in my brain. What if Aule is 'teaching' his little dwarven golems (an interesting appelation that occurred to me considering how Tolkien related the dwarves to the Jews) at his forge, and the furnace suddenly blazes, driving back not only the dwarves, but Aule himself (demonstrating that the source is a power greater than him). It is from this fire, (remember, Eru is associated with the Flame Imperishable) that Iluvatar speaks. It gives us physical evidence of His presence, a location for Aule to speak to, and makes for fantastic lighting of the moment when Aule lifts his hammer, threatening to destroy the dwarves, who cower in the shadow he creates, standing as he does between them and Iluvatar. He stands aside, allowing them to be in the light, and it is then that they are put to sleep to await the Awakening of the Firstborn. They are, after all, the Children of Iluvatar's adoption.
In fact, speaking of this has created something of an explosion in my brain. What if Aule is 'teaching' his little dwarven golems (an interesting appelation that occurred to me considering how Tolkien related the dwarves to the Jews) at his forge, and the furnace suddenly blazes, driving back not only the dwarves, but Aule himself (demonstrating that the source is a power greater than him). It is from this fire, (remember, Eru is associated with the Flame Imperishable) that Iluvatar speaks. It gives us physical evidence of His presence, a location for Aule to speak to, and makes for fantastic lighting of the moment when Aule lifts his hammer, threatening to destroy the dwarves, who cower in the shadow he creates, standing as he does between them and Iluvatar. He stands aside, allowing them to be in the light, and it is then that they are put to sleep to await the Awakening of the Firstborn. They are, after all, the Children of Iluvatar's adoption.
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I had an immediate kneejerk reaction against that, but the more I thought about it, the more I liked it.
I had initially been thinking of the light of Iluvatar falling on the dwarves' faces for the first time, but I do like having the Flame touch or enter them somehow.
As I think about it, though, the moment that the Flame enters them would be when Aule lifts his hammer to strike them. I dunno. I'm torn.
I had initially been thinking of the light of Iluvatar falling on the dwarves' faces for the first time, but I do like having the Flame touch or enter them somehow.
As I think about it, though, the moment that the Flame enters them would be when Aule lifts his hammer to strike them. I dunno. I'm torn.
So, to start with, there is a vision of the Timeless Halls in the furnace, with Ilúvatar speaking to Aulë in the vision, but as Aulë repents (and we need his defence speech here) and is about to smite the dwarves, Eru has simultaneously set the Flame Imperishable in them. The question is, do we need to see fire pass from the vision to the dwarves? Maybe, but in that case, just as if the light cast from the flame of the furnace gives them warmth, and kindles a light in their eyes, very subtly. I like the idea of the Pentecost flames, but I think that it might interfere with Aulë's process and take away some of the feeling of relief when Eru announces his forgiveness.
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
From "The Bible" mini-series. Moses kinda looks like I imagine Aule here too, though I'd want Aule to be a lot beefier.
The Narnian lullaby scene uses Tumnus' fire as a television:
(Note this is before the viewer knows the significance of a lion to Narnia.)
I think that having Iluvatar speak from the fire works very well, and we can incorporate some level of a Vision of the Timeless Halls into this.
I agree that the 'Pentecost' thing doesn't quite work with the timing and flow of the scene. The reason I suggested it is because of the Show, Don't Tell rule of storytelling on film...we want to SEE them become sentient creatures (which will happen when they flinch and cower away from Aulë), and seeing the spark of life come directly from Iluvatar just sounded like a good idea. Practically...it has some challenges.
I think that having Iluvatar speak from the fire works very well, and we can incorporate some level of a Vision of the Timeless Halls into this.
I agree that the 'Pentecost' thing doesn't quite work with the timing and flow of the scene. The reason I suggested it is because of the Show, Don't Tell rule of storytelling on film...we want to SEE them become sentient creatures (which will happen when they flinch and cower away from Aulë), and seeing the spark of life come directly from Iluvatar just sounded like a good idea. Practically...it has some challenges.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I just thought of something. The image in my mind is difficult to describe, but I'm going to do my best. God, I wish I could draw.
Iluvatar and Aule have their discussion, and Aule lifts his hammer to smash the dwarves. The furnace blazes again, the flames engulfing the room for a split second. Once they recede, we see the dwarves all look up at Aule and recoil in fear. As Iluvatar speaks, we zoom in on Durin's eye, seeing Aule with his upraised hammer reflected with the light from the Iluvatar-'possessed' furnace streaming out from behind him.
Iluvatar and Aule have their discussion, and Aule lifts his hammer to smash the dwarves. The furnace blazes again, the flames engulfing the room for a split second. Once they recede, we see the dwarves all look up at Aule and recoil in fear. As Iluvatar speaks, we zoom in on Durin's eye, seeing Aule with his upraised hammer reflected with the light from the Iluvatar-'possessed' furnace streaming out from behind him.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Maybe slightly out of focus, so that it is not immediately apparent to the viewer.
Halstein
Active Member
MithLuin, Haakon and Nicholas, great ideas on Iluvatar's intervention with the Dwarf-creation. Should the effect be more like "living light" than "bonfire flames"? Also, I don't think we should be afraid of looking to classical art for inspiration. If this makes me hokey, I'll bear that label gladly.