Session 1.13

I don't know exactly what they represent other than that they are some kind of representatives of the powers of the West. They are a signal of the power of the Valar. That means that they are a positive force in the story, even if they are more unreliable than in the Hobbit and LOTR.
I would also argue that it would be best to postpone their awakening until the end of the last episode because, if we introduce them now, we can only use them by having them discover the beasts of Melkor, and that sets a rather dangerous example. Then, the first thing they do is to discover, to reveal something nobody knew before. Then why are they not the ones discovering the Firstborn? I also think of creation and subcreation. How are they created if we introduce them now? If we let them come at the time of the awakening of the Eldar, that seems to indicate that Ilúvatar has created them, which would be fine. But Having the Valar somehow create them, when we just had that business with Aulë? That seems a bit...I don't know, but doesn't it seem like a double standard? Or are they created now but by Eru? I don't know, I don't like the timing. It would be like a parent saying "You can't have that toy! Oh don't be sad, here is another toy!" Or worse, since poor Aulë has to wait for his Dwarves until much later.
 
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I think we should not have the balrogs exposed until the valar come to Utumno to make war. But somehow I feel that the discovery of the other beasts is a kind of weak trigger. It's no news at this stage that there are a lot of beasts around; I think we had Oromë and Tulkas hunting monsters in episode 8. I agree that the monsters are a part of the reason to go to war, but not central. The war is inevitable because of Melkor's desire for dominion and the chaos caused by that again and again, not only in Middle-earth, but among the Ainur. We have the rebellion of Ossë in episodes 9-10 and Aulë creating the Dwarves in episode 11. In both cases the story ends well. That is good, but the more things turn out for the good, the less we need a war. At this stage, the story doesn't need something good to happen. It's not good for the story to give the Valar the Ents and Eagles right now. It would be better if something bad happens.

This episode: First, we can't just leave Ossë. Early on, we could perhaps show Ossë rejecting another invitation from Melkor? I don't know, it's just an idea.
Other than that, I think we'll do fine with Aulë and the Dwarves in this episode. I suggest we begin with a scene in which we are reminded of Aulë's impatience. Then we do the transgression. We should give it some time - it would not be good to rush over it. A longer, more focused series of scenes concentrating on how Aulë goes to his secret workshop, gathers material, prepares and shapes his children, building up to the sudden vision, could be quite good.
Also, we should have a good portion of frame in this episode. Not only because of the Dwarves but because we must have a scene between Estel and Bilbo. Estel could have a lot of prejudice against the Dwarves, but Bilbo could, smiling, sensibly talk him out of that.

(So I think that the aftermath of Aulë and the Dwarves should happen next episode (12). Aulë confessing to Yavanna, Yavanna going to Manwë, and how they talk about what was in the Song. I think that Manwë should end that conversation by saying that the Ents and the Eagles shall awaken at the same time as the Children, not before. The Eagles are associated with hope to such a high degree, if they turn up now, everyone will feel things are going to turn out well - and that's not a feeling we need. Besides, they can't just show up at the whim of the Valar - they are in the Music, but not of any solo from Manwë or Yavanna. Then we have the council where Mandos speak of the awakening. At this point, I suggest that Mairon finally feels that there is no question that Melkor is the stronger and that a future on his side is the best road to take. And so he slips away. Maybe this defection isn't noticed right away, I don't know. We seem to lean towards having Sauron's path to evil be as subtle as it can be, so maybe the Valar don't notice him defecting at all, or if they notice it, they regret it but don't see that it should have any special consequences. Perhaps they could take it as a sign of the general chaos, though, and be downcast by it. And maybe, in the light of what happened when Ossë was rebelling, they fear what Mairon can do as a rebel. Curumo could speak up and describe his fellow Maia's words of late. (I think Mairon could defect either before or after the Valar makes the decision to go to war, but preferrably before).
And then (after a lot of talking) we must have some time showing how Mairon comes to Melkor and is set up as lieutenant of Angband, given some of the balrogs to command etc.), and perhaps some more of Oromë fighting the hopeless fight against the monsters.

I think it's mostly in how we do it. This would be another opportunity to use Ulmo as the relentless anti-Melkor guy. When Orome reports back that there are violent, ravening beasts wandering about, most of the Valar should be like "Who's responsible for this? What's going on?" and Ulmo is like "Really, you guys are asking that question? Who's the only guy who's been a pain in the butt this whole time? Built his own kingdom? Ringing any bells?"

I think the fallout of Osse's rebellion could use some screen time in this episode, sure. I also like that we could have a big chunk of screen time devoted to Estel and Bilbo here. I was just thinking that we're running low on material for this episode until you brought it up.

Seems I never have enough time to get in here and really think about what everybody's saying. I'll be there on Friday for sure this week, maybe we could actually use the chat room and spitball some more stuff in there.
 
I don't know exactly what they represent other than that they are some kind of representatives of the powers of the West. They are a signal of the power of the Valar. That means that they are a positive force in the story, even if they are more unreliable than in the Hobbit and LOTR.
I would also argue that it would be best to postpone their awakening until the end of the last episode because, if we introduce them now, we can only use them by having them discover the beasts of Melkor, and that sets a rather dangerous example. Then, the first thing they do is to discover, to reveal something nobody knew before. Then why are they not the ones discovering the Firstborn? I also think of creation and subcreation. How are they created if we introduce them now? If we let them come at the time of the awakening of the Eldar, that seems to indicate that Ilúvatar has created them, which would be fine. But Having the Valar somehow create them, when we just had that business with Aulë? That seems a bit...I don't know, but doesn't it seem like a double standard? Or are they created now but by Eru? I don't know, I don't like the timing. It would be like a parent saying "You can't have that toy! Oh don't be sad, here is another toy!" Or worse, since poor Aulë has to wait for his Dwarves until much later.


I agree that this is an issue. It is why I have been suggesting that the original Eagles and Ents are of Maiar origins. We know that embodied Maiar can eat, sleep, and breed with no difficulty, so it does make sense that the Eagles are embodied forms of Manwe's cadre of Maiar.
 
Wow, it seems like I have been out of the loop for so long, and there is so much to catch up on, I still haven't read it all.
I have finally listened to the backlog of sessions so I now feel like I can contribute.

I wanted to join a few dots and make some links that I felt were missing in the sessions. Here goes:
  1. It appears that Season 1 will be pretty much in two halves thematically. If we were to have titles for the two halves I would call them "Arda" up to the destruction of the lamps and "The Children of Hope" (Double meaning) from there to the end of the season. I would actually be happy for Estel's identity to be revealed (but not to him) in the final episode of Season 1 to tie in with the revealing of the children of Iluvatar, two signs of hope in the beleaguered world.
  2. From the first episode after the destruction of the lamps there needs to be consistent and regular reminders of the coming of the children. One of the main reasons for the Powers to remove from Middle Earth in the council episode would be for the protection of the Children. The argument should be that if the Powers remain, whatever is bent on ruining their lives will continue to act and therefore bring about continuing tragedy onto Middle Earth. If the Powers remove to Valinor then the Children will be safe. This is of course flawed reasoning. As others have mentioned Aule needs to regularly comment and question if the Children are ever coming. In addition one of the problems with Osse's rebellion is that he risks damaging the children before they awake as he destroys huge swathes of land (I am talking massive tsunamis here).
  3. In Osse's rebellion it appeared to be difficult to find a reason for Melkor to seek out Osse. I would envisage that after the council meeting in Episode 7, about one third of the Maiar would defect to Melkor and elect to stay in Middle Earth. When reviewing who has pledged allegiance to Melkor it would be noted that there are only a few Maiar of water as they mostly reside in the oceans and have been largely unaffected by the destruction of the lamps. This is what then sends Melkor off to the water's edge, to seek new recruits. Don't forget that Melkor has part of the knowledge and powers of all the other Valar.
  4. The hosts seem to struggle with sufficient motivation for Osse's rebellion and how Melkor could lure him into rebellion against Ulmo. The answer is in the music. Melkor's deviation from Iluvatar's original theme is of course because he wanted to march to the beat of a different drum and to follow his own heart's desire rather than another's. This is the same for Osse. Melkor can beguile him with talk of untrammeled expression, but of course Melkor really wants others to follow his lead.
  5. The hosts also struggled to find a legitimate reason for Mairon and Melkor to meet again. Simple. In the session about Manwe's meeting with Melkor the comment was made that Aule can be busy admiring the handiwork of Uttumno while the Maiar are talking. This now gives Mairon a legitimate reason to visit Uttumno again on the request of Aule who wants to know the secret for a particular construction possibly including fire as he is only the earth guy, not the fire guy.
  6. I was also thinking about the mechanism for bringing about the creatures of tusk and ivory and I must admit I have the author Stephen Donaldson to thank for my thinking here. In the 2nd Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Staff of Law that upheld the Earthpower had been destroyed which then allowed the corruption of the Sunbane to slowly grow. I like the idea that the earth has power in it. To that end as well as our discussions about whether the Powers can create light I envisage Uttumno being like a huge sponge slowly draining the light and power out Middle Earth. Melkor covets light but can't actually create it. At the same time his brooding over the injustices inflicted upon him can leech out from his throne spawning horrid creatures in the darkness, a bit like the picture of Dorian Grey which putrefies instead of him. I admit there may be difficulties in portraying this on screen.
  7. I also have concerns that Melkor has not actually done anything or will do anything that warrants him being exiled to the void for an age. I am hoping that Corey has an ace up his sleeve there.
Maybe tomorrow I can add my thoughts about the Aule episode.
 
I agree that this is an issue. It is why I have been suggesting that the original Eagles and Ents are of Maiar origins. We know that embodied Maiar can eat, sleep, and breed with no difficulty, so it does make sense that the Eagles are embodied forms of Manwe's cadre of Maiar.
They must absloutely be some kind of free spirits who take to these physical forms. Perhaps Maiar. I don't know, from what I understand of Tolkien they can be some other kind of spirit, but I realize I'm probably wrong. But in either case, I'm convinced that bringing them in now, just when Aulë's wish to have children was turned down, is problematic. What kind of life was he trying to create? He did not try to put the Flame imperishable in them. This whole problem is why Manwë says no to Yavanna at first, isn't it? It's not for the valar to decide to put such sentient beings to Arda. They can wish for them and they can be part of the Song, and Ilúvatar can give them these helpers, but they cannot chose the time and manner in which they are created. Giving this some time (until the awakening of the Firstborn) will show the viewers that the Valar are subjects to the Music.
 
Wow, Phillip, that's a lot of food for thought for tomorrow!

Regarding #7, Melkor will be chained in Mandos, not exiled to the Void. They don't send him to the Void until the end of the First Age, after he has done plenty that would justify exile.

As for what would get him locked up now - it's to protect the Children, so he's making Middle Earth dangerous. If we want to make it a specific crime, though, I want to give thought to the Maiar who have defected to Melkor's side. We know about the Balrogs, of course. But are there others, who, maybe rather more naively, have joined him? And is he maybe taking advantage/using them? Seems in character....but if he is forcing them to become monsters, there might be a specific crime to be punished.
 
, I want to give thought to the Maiar who have defected to Melkor's side. We know about the Balrogs, of course. But are there others, who, maybe rather more naively, have joined him? And is he maybe taking advantage/using them? Seems in character....but if he is forcing them to become monsters, there might be a specific crime to be punished.
Maybe we should do something out of Mairon defecting.
 
Mairon is a willing defector, and nothing bad happens to him (he does not become a monster). Up until this point, I would think that Maiar would be free to remain in Middle Earth with Melkor if they wanted to. There is no open war. So....I am suggesting something different, like perhaps how Thuringwethil becomes a giant bat creature, or something.
 
I prefer having Oromë, Yavanna and maybe Tulkas encountering the growing number of beasts in Middle-earth, rather than introducing Eagles and Ents. (I think I have made that clear...)
 
You all have convinced me there's a problem/difficulty to be answered with the timing of the coming of the Eagles and the Ents. I think the clearest way to deal with it is to have them come into being or awaken at the same time as the Children (or even soon following). Have Manwë specifically state that they will not awaken before the Children (as Iluvatar says to Aulë regarding the dwarves). Then have them appear in the last, or penultimate episodes in order to be the sign (without showing them until the last shot) that the Children have awoken, which can send Oromë off to find them.

I really like your 2nd idea Phillip, with regards to some Valar/Maiar desiring to stay behind in Middle Earth...and the potential dangers involved (either defection to Melkor or falling under attack eventually and needing to retreat back to Valinor).

As to Ossë's rebellion and the reason for Melkor to seek him out...I still like the idea of showing Melkor attempting to dominate or control the seas. We're told in The Silmarillion that they are the one thing he cannot dominate without any proof to show he's tried. This can be used as a character building moment, as he tries to use his extreme heat and cold to control the oceans, only to have the subsequent storms caused run completely out of his control....perhaps to be caught up by Ossë, who would see in this raw and powerful chaos an ally and collaborator.

That puts the two rather naturally together, where initially Ossë may not necessarily fall or rebel so much as heavily sympathize and even enjoy the company of Melkor...being of like minds in a way. Then the actual rebellion can grow from there.
 
I think that the only difficulty involved with using the timeline from the PUBSIL for the creation of the Eagles and Ents is if we assume them to be new souls, like the Children are. As there is not a whole lot of evidence as to what they actually are, I would prefer to preserve that timeline here, if possible. If they are of Ainur origin, we do not have a problem.
 
Good point.
I could see doing something for the Ents similar to the Dwarves, where they are more extensions of Yavanna's thought, not free beings in their own right prior to the Children's awakening. They can exist as the fathers/mothers of trees already planted by Yavanna, but given true sentience and souls after the Children. I think that can fit pretty well with the sorts of things Treebeard says in LotR...as well as the commentary on the nature of trees both he and Bombadil give the hobbits.

The Eagles don't seem to follow the same pattern, and seem to fit more with a maiar/wind spirit given flesh sort of model. We aren't given much detail to know one way or the other.
 
I still think that the last thing the story needs right now is more strength added to the Valar and their strategic position in Middle-earth.
 
I don't really think that the Eagles really tip the scales sharply in the Valar's favor (vs. Melkor). We know that the Valar do in fact win the battle with Melkor, with very little contest, it would seem. However, when we see the Valar and their 'servants', the combat-oriented individuals are the exception, rather than the rule that we would see on Melkor's side of the pond. We have the major Valar, who are all obviously powerful and impressive, Arien, Eonwe, Osse, plus a bunch of crafty (Aule's folk), and bookish (Olorin?) Maiar, not to mention wispy nature spirits and what not. Melkor has the balrogs, his various and assorted collection of scary beasts, not to mention the addition of werewolves and vampires. What you have is a band of powerful heroes surrounded by non-combatants ranged against a powerful villain surrounded by heavy thugs and maniacs.

On top of this, the danger is never shown to be that the Valar will be defeated, but that Arda will be irreparably damaged (which to a degree, it is.)
 
I don't agree. First of all, the issue is the scales before the war and the reasons to go to war, not how the war ends. Secondly, as you say, the issue is not the power of the Valar but life in Middle-earth. So I think it would be good to have the Valar fight a rather hopeless struggle against the masses of monsters. Without Eagles and Ents, the reason to go to war to make Middle-earth a safer place increases.
 
I do see the value of giving the Valar the short end of the stick as the battle approaches. It certainly makes the situation more immediately dramatic.
However, I think that the drama of the situation in the source material comes from the decision to go to war, rather than whether or not the war will be lost. We can show the Valar despairing as the beautiful world they have spent millennia fashioning and then repairing is torn up as they struggle with the monsters of Melkor's making.
 
Exactly - I don't see the drama to be about the outcome of the war. It's all about the Valar being forced to go to war. That's why I want less power on their side. I want them cornered.
 
I do not really see any need for them to be in a clearly untenable position for them to be forced to go to war. The reason they are forced to go to war is to protect the Children, not themselves. Even so, even with Eagles and Ents (who may not actually participate this go around), I feel that they will certainly appear to hold far less military might than Melkor and his brood.
 
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