Session 1.14
- Thread starter Phillip Menzies
- Start date
Tim_Widman
Member
Coming from anyone but Manwë it would be intentionally so. Would any of the other Valar note this? I think if Manwë offered such a thing it would be in charity and sincerity with no notion that it might cause offense.
By this I don't mean Manwë's oblivious, but rather that he understands the Truth of the underlying order of Arda. It is not a matter of perceived precedence or pride, rather it is a statement of the way the world is by the express will of Iluvatar. This is the sticky point where script writers, as has been noted, will have to be particularly careful.
Yes, it would definitely be out of charity. And yes, I agree that Manwë understands that it can be taken as something else. He is taking a risk, out of love.
Ok another draft:
Aulë has confessed to Yavanna and we now see her in Middle-earth, where she is met by decay and death of a kind and to an extent that makes her really worried. Also, Middle-earth is in tumult: volcanoes, cyclones, waves crashing on the shore, earth crumbling into the sea. She runs into Oromë, who is also worried. He says he is not only hunting beasts, but searching for the Children, who might or might not have awakened.
Yavanna returns to the peace and harmony of Valinor. (EDIT: This could be when Aulë confesses to her. Her coming to this directly after being in the troubling Middle-earth could enhance the viewer's understanding of how concerned she gets) She goes to Manwë and speaks of tree guardians. He rejects the idea but she reminds him that it was in the Music. He has a vision in which Ilúvatar makes him understand that Yavanna is right and also that there will be Eagles as well, that both of these groups of guardians were foretold by the Song and are part of Ilúvatar's plan. But the Trees of Yavanna will not arrive until at the awakening of the Children, and the Eagles will come just before that, but the timing of that was not revealed. In any case, the Valar cannot rely on their aid now. On the other hand, the vision has strengthened Manwë's faith in Ilúvatar's plan and in his own path of diplomacy, although he suspects war.
Aulë, relieved and thankful, speaks openly of his experience with the Dwarves and Eru's intervention. Mairon takes this news to Melkor, who finds Aulë's behaviour revolting but also inspiring. He speaks to Mairon of the coming of the Children, and that he should create his own people, one that would match the so-called "Firstborn". When the Children of Ilúvatar come, surely they should prosper most under Melkor’s protection. He has come to the conclusion that he shall declare himself Lord of Middle-earth and that all Valar and Maiar are welcome to his realm as long as they bow to him. He says to Mairon, in a friendly way, that the building of Angband is progressing, but slowly, he could use Mairon there, "Are you with me or against me?" Mairon is undecided. He has doubts, and is remorseful and wondering whether he has gone too far, maybe he is on the wrong path. Does he dare to take that step? He asks for some time to think, which Melkor gladly gives him, but the Vala says that time is moving on, he can’t wait with his decision forever. Mairon goes back to Valinor, but Melkor leaves Utumno to search for the Children.
When Mairon brings his news to the Valar, most of them expect Manwë to go to war, or at least punish Melkor, or as a worst case scenario give him an ultimatum. But Manwë decides to send Eonwë to offer Melkor the seat next to him in Valinor. He must give up his Lordship of Middle-earth and never go back there, but he will be close to his brother, as in the beginning, as in the thought of Ilúvatar. Mairon is utterly disappointed with this and leaves Valinor, forever. Eonwë comes to Utumno, but Melkor is not interested in talking. He has Eonwë waiting, to humiliate him. While waiting, Eonwë hears sounds from below, from somewhere under the beautiful palace of Utumno, which otherwise seems pretty empty. Bored and curious, he goes for a search. After a while, he finds a tunnel, which somehow looks out of place and suspicious, and the sounds seem to come from it. He starts to examine the tunnel, but has to stop and quickly go back, because Melkor is coming his way in the company of Thuringwethil. He overhears some conversation: “The Children seem ready, My Lord” – “Then we have no time – take me to them. We just have to see Manwë's pawn off.” Eonwë hurries back. He gives Melkor the offer he was sent to give, but Melkor is shocked. He accuses Eonwë of humiliating him, of spying, and gives the orders to imprison Eonwë. Eonwë says that this is a mistake, Melkor has the chance to take another road. Melkor scoffs and sends Thuringwethil to get him. Eonwë explains that if that is Melkor’s choice, he regretfully must escape, since he must deliver a message to Manwë. He eludes Thuringwethil. Melkor then calls for Gothmog, and the Balrog Captain comes. Gothmog manages to catch Eonwë, who now has grasped the situation enough to realize completely what Melkor is about. He relinquishes his body and escapes in spirit form.
There is a meeting in Valinor, in which Aulë presents his vision again and the Valar discuss the fact that the Children are about to awaken and the state of Middle-earth is really bad. It is clearly perilous land. Mandos confirms the imminent awakening and Varda decides to collect the light of the Trees to kindle more stars. Eonwë returns in sprit form and delivers the news of his journey, that Melkor commands the Balrogs, and that he seems to be interested in the coming of the Children.
As Varda collects light from the Trees for the new star constellations the Valar decide to go to war. Manwë calls forth the new Eonwë, armed for war. Mairon, who has wandered with a heavy heart to Middle-earth, shows up at Utumno and bows down to Melkor. At that moment, they look up, because a new star has been kindled in the sky. And then another one.
The end of the episode could be...well...I don't know...Maybe when Eonwë gives up his body? Or later.
Aulë has confessed to Yavanna and we now see her in Middle-earth, where she is met by decay and death of a kind and to an extent that makes her really worried. Also, Middle-earth is in tumult: volcanoes, cyclones, waves crashing on the shore, earth crumbling into the sea. She runs into Oromë, who is also worried. He says he is not only hunting beasts, but searching for the Children, who might or might not have awakened.
Yavanna returns to the peace and harmony of Valinor. (EDIT: This could be when Aulë confesses to her. Her coming to this directly after being in the troubling Middle-earth could enhance the viewer's understanding of how concerned she gets) She goes to Manwë and speaks of tree guardians. He rejects the idea but she reminds him that it was in the Music. He has a vision in which Ilúvatar makes him understand that Yavanna is right and also that there will be Eagles as well, that both of these groups of guardians were foretold by the Song and are part of Ilúvatar's plan. But the Trees of Yavanna will not arrive until at the awakening of the Children, and the Eagles will come just before that, but the timing of that was not revealed. In any case, the Valar cannot rely on their aid now. On the other hand, the vision has strengthened Manwë's faith in Ilúvatar's plan and in his own path of diplomacy, although he suspects war.
Aulë, relieved and thankful, speaks openly of his experience with the Dwarves and Eru's intervention. Mairon takes this news to Melkor, who finds Aulë's behaviour revolting but also inspiring. He speaks to Mairon of the coming of the Children, and that he should create his own people, one that would match the so-called "Firstborn". When the Children of Ilúvatar come, surely they should prosper most under Melkor’s protection. He has come to the conclusion that he shall declare himself Lord of Middle-earth and that all Valar and Maiar are welcome to his realm as long as they bow to him. He says to Mairon, in a friendly way, that the building of Angband is progressing, but slowly, he could use Mairon there, "Are you with me or against me?" Mairon is undecided. He has doubts, and is remorseful and wondering whether he has gone too far, maybe he is on the wrong path. Does he dare to take that step? He asks for some time to think, which Melkor gladly gives him, but the Vala says that time is moving on, he can’t wait with his decision forever. Mairon goes back to Valinor, but Melkor leaves Utumno to search for the Children.
When Mairon brings his news to the Valar, most of them expect Manwë to go to war, or at least punish Melkor, or as a worst case scenario give him an ultimatum. But Manwë decides to send Eonwë to offer Melkor the seat next to him in Valinor. He must give up his Lordship of Middle-earth and never go back there, but he will be close to his brother, as in the beginning, as in the thought of Ilúvatar. Mairon is utterly disappointed with this and leaves Valinor, forever. Eonwë comes to Utumno, but Melkor is not interested in talking. He has Eonwë waiting, to humiliate him. While waiting, Eonwë hears sounds from below, from somewhere under the beautiful palace of Utumno, which otherwise seems pretty empty. Bored and curious, he goes for a search. After a while, he finds a tunnel, which somehow looks out of place and suspicious, and the sounds seem to come from it. He starts to examine the tunnel, but has to stop and quickly go back, because Melkor is coming his way in the company of Thuringwethil. He overhears some conversation: “The Children seem ready, My Lord” – “Then we have no time – take me to them. We just have to see Manwë's pawn off.” Eonwë hurries back. He gives Melkor the offer he was sent to give, but Melkor is shocked. He accuses Eonwë of humiliating him, of spying, and gives the orders to imprison Eonwë. Eonwë says that this is a mistake, Melkor has the chance to take another road. Melkor scoffs and sends Thuringwethil to get him. Eonwë explains that if that is Melkor’s choice, he regretfully must escape, since he must deliver a message to Manwë. He eludes Thuringwethil. Melkor then calls for Gothmog, and the Balrog Captain comes. Gothmog manages to catch Eonwë, who now has grasped the situation enough to realize completely what Melkor is about. He relinquishes his body and escapes in spirit form.
There is a meeting in Valinor, in which Aulë presents his vision again and the Valar discuss the fact that the Children are about to awaken and the state of Middle-earth is really bad. It is clearly perilous land. Mandos confirms the imminent awakening and Varda decides to collect the light of the Trees to kindle more stars. Eonwë returns in sprit form and delivers the news of his journey, that Melkor commands the Balrogs, and that he seems to be interested in the coming of the Children.
As Varda collects light from the Trees for the new star constellations the Valar decide to go to war. Manwë calls forth the new Eonwë, armed for war. Mairon, who has wandered with a heavy heart to Middle-earth, shows up at Utumno and bows down to Melkor. At that moment, they look up, because a new star has been kindled in the sky. And then another one.
The end of the episode could be...well...I don't know...Maybe when Eonwë gives up his body? Or later.
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Tim_Widman
Member
With how things have come together at this point, would could even skirt the idea of needing Mairon to act as messenger altogether. Granted this makes it harder to establish the internal struggle he's going through. Instead we could simply have Mairon return after Manwë's vision, see him choose to send an emissary, and perhaps voice disgust to Curumo before leaving.
The nice thing about this is that it holds the 'Kingship' of Melkor in reserve, for Eonwë to discover. With the offer of a place at Manwë's side being offered, having this delivered within the response works very neatly.
(Just another option to consider!)
Tim_Widman
Member
It's a balancing act. We lose something, we gain something. I like showing a conflicted Mairon at least through to near the end of this episode. Though there are reasons for Mairon to report Melkor's doings, it is a tenuous tightrope to make believable. That being said, with our 'budget' we can get the best writers and the best actors, right?I'll have to give that some thought and consider the consequences. I have a sense that we lose something if we take out Mairon. Oh well...
Yes indeed! We've given them plenty to wade through; I'm curious to see what they do. Hopefully the itunes version gets posted quickly. I'm looking forward to this one!
michael dennis
Member
I like that this gives the Eagles something meaningful to do.I feel there are a few issues we are wrestling with concerning the 'tipping point' that sends the Valar to war.
- It is easy to say that the imminent (eminent? I should know the difference between those words) arrival of the Children should be the catalyst. But how?
- What does Melkor do to bring this pre-emptive strike down upon his head that he hasn't done already and been allowed to go free?
- How do the Valar find out about his fell deeds? Secret/suspected actions aren't really a justification for war....
So, I propose we have Melkor make the first move.
All of the beasts/poisoning of Arda/attacks on other realms can be going on. Urgency in dealing with these problems is added by Mandos' prophecy concerning the arrival of the Children. Manwë sends Eonwë to Melkor...with a summons to appear in Valinor to discuss the problem. Eonwë arrives in Utumno, delivers Manwë's message, and....Melkor laughs in his face. He declares himself king of Arda, and 'Who is Manwë, to command me?' and that sort of thing. Then, he orders Eonwë thrown in a dungeon for his impertinence in delivering such a message. 'If Manwë wants to talk to me, he can come himself.'
Eonwë does not immediately return to the Council of the Valar, so, naturally, there is some concern over that. Manwë and Varda stand together on the height of Taniquetal and look towards Utumno, which is shrouded in clouds, and...somehow figure out that Eonwë is locked up there. [Eagles? Not yet?] At this news, the Council of the Valar (do they have the Ring of Doom yet? They'll judge Melkor there, so....soon!) presses for action, though Manwë is still troubled. He warns them that these actions will have consequences that will follow them down all the Ages of Arda, and they must be absolutely certain before all is lost...and someone (Aulë?) points out that the Children are not yet lost, but may be if they do nothing. Consulting Iluvatar is brought up.
At this point, Eonwë returns! He has single-handedly fought his way out of the pits of Utumno, past Melkor's beasts, maybe even wrestled with a Balrog - he's Eonwë, he can do these things! [And yes, of course we would follow him and see these actions - he's not just going to say 'I was...delayed' and smile and leave it at that
And then, the Valar go to War.
Luther Tegtmeier
New Member
It's probably late to bring this up but, I think it makes more sense for Mairon to go to Melkor before Aule actually creates the Dwarves. Aule would discuss his plans to his closest lieutenants. They would have varying opinions on why it was a good or bad idea. Mairon believes that Aule intends to use the Dwarves as weapons against Melkor and his 'wonderful' creations. This will damage Arda and is a betrayal of Melkor, the rightful ruler and the only Valar that really cares.
This way, when Melkor hears the news that the Dwarves are being made, he does not know about Illuvatar's intervention and the decision to keep the Dwarves asleep. This gives him even more reason to try to create/torture/steal souls for his own version of the Children.
More details of what I was thinking on this are in my earlier post.
This way, when Melkor hears the news that the Dwarves are being made, he does not know about Illuvatar's intervention and the decision to keep the Dwarves asleep. This gives him even more reason to try to create/torture/steal souls for his own version of the Children.
More details of what I was thinking on this are in my earlier post.
Luther Tegtmeier
New Member
I think that once Mairon goes to warn Melkor in Utumno it becomes very clear that he has chosen Melkor's side against the Valar. It seems difficult to try to make the audience think he is still wavering back and forth. Melkor, Mairon, and the audience know that he will never be on Manwe's team with the rest of the Valar.
I'm thinking that when Mairon leaves, he intends to stay with Melkor. He is worried that Utumno's great beauty will be destroyed. When Melkor tells him Angband is under construction, Mairon wants go there and lead preparations. But, Melkor convinces him that he is more valuable if he goes back to Valinor to serve as a spy or a devil's advocate.
I'm definitely not arguing against a gradual fall into 'evil'. Mairon does not know some of the darker things Melkor has done and believes he is doing more to help Arda than any of the Valar. If Mairon knew how dark Melkor's heart is already, he might never have chosen his side. But, Melkor can later use the preemptive attack the Valar launched on him as justification for any evil he does or convinces Sauron to do in the future.
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I would add to this: Manwe's moment of certainty must tie in with his "vision" or "communion" with Iluvatar. It is not just guidance. From this point he is at one with The Music. Let's just forget that he is not at one with The Music when he agrees to free Melkor in season 2. Or maybe he is at one with The Music when he frees Melkor.
I was thinking that Mairon sees Melkor as a powerful friend or mentor, not as someone he works for. When Melkor tells him he is now King of Middle-earth and he asks Mairon to choose sides, Mairon is perhaps already there, has already made his choice, but needs time to understand that himself. Melkor knows this, way before Marion does.
Oh. Did we actually do Aulë confessing to Yavanna? I sort of assumed we had done that... But... did we? If not, we need to say something about it.
That could happen when she returns from Middle-earth. So we begin the episode in Middle-earth and the hellish misery there, and then she comes back to Valinor and she gets Aulë's confession on top of that, which sends her, upset, to Manwë.
That could happen when she returns from Middle-earth. So we begin the episode in Middle-earth and the hellish misery there, and then she comes back to Valinor and she gets Aulë's confession on top of that, which sends her, upset, to Manwë.
So in terms of Ents and Eagles appearing in this episode it seems most contributors are against it. They are envisaged but not actually embodied. The only way I could see them appearing is if they are a last ditch effort by the Valar to bring order to Middle Earth but I think dramatically the War is what brings order. If Manwe comes out of his "communion/vision" with Iluvatar in response to Yavanna, the certainty he has on the course before him doesn't fit in with a last ditch attempt. Maybe they are a good season 2 opener, ents waking, eagles taking their first flight and Orome in the gloom of Middle Earth coming upon the firstborn.
Yes, only I'm still confused about why the Eagles are supposed to come earlier, as PubSil says. Either we wait until season two, as you say, or they show up in the finale, first the Eagles, just after the war, as some kind of wardens, and then later, the Ents come to life at the time of the Awakening.
ouzaru
Well-Known Member
That goes back to the little ditty I wrote several pages ago making Mairon the cats paw for war, though you've reversed the impetus from Melkor to Manwe.
I don't know, I'm of two minds on the war effort. Are we super comfortable with putting the onus of declaring war on Manwe? I feel like the work everyone's doing on making Eonwe an action hero is really taking the agency away from our big bad, and making him look like sort of a roof. It's absurd to me that Eonwe "happens to hear some strange noises" to begin his investigations of Utumno. I feel like War really needs to be Melkor's idea, and there's a couple ways to get at it. Why are we all so enameled with Eonwe over Mairon? Are we trying to save him for season two? In either case, why are we placing war squarely in the hands of the Valar? I think we can get the dramatic moment for Manwe realizing that War is inevitable without having them spring war on Melkor unawares. I much prefer the notion that Melkor has no faith in Manwe's vaunted "harmony" and discounts their might, and is quickly shown, quite rudely, the error in his reckoning. All his plans, all his devices, he was only just beginning to get to the real work! And now he's been humbled.
I don't know. I'm think now about the "battle" itself. I'm wondering just how beaten Melkor should appear to be. Should Mairon even be suspected? Angband isn't discovered, correct?
I need to compile of screw-turners to stick to the hosts in the next hour or so, I suspect we're gonna get nowhere near through everything we need to get through.
I agree...this a really weak part of the sketch....
ouzaru
Well-Known Member
Weak is merely an opportunity for deep thought and revision! Personally I think there's a couple ways to go at it: either Melkor invites him down into the dungeon to throw his machinations in Eonwe's and Manwe's faces openly, or he leads him down there intentionally so as to entice a declaration of war and appear to be the wounded party to the other Maiar who were on the fence about who to join.I agree...this a really weak part of the sketch....
I'm sure I could come up with other stuff if I thought about it a while, it's not an insurmountable point.