Session 1.15

Phillip Menzies

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Staff member
So the big questions on all of our minds to ponder for the final episode of Season 1, Session 1.15 to air on Friday 26th February are:

From last time, that we didn't really conclude (need to wrap up)
  • Ents and Eagles? How are they connected to the story (growing elements of chaos)
  • What's happening in Middle-earth?
  • Melkor's comments on The Children?
  • Set up for the war
  • Timing of the Awakening of the Elves - Silmarillion time frame or Book of Lost Tales timeline?
  • Yavanna, Ents and Eagles
  • "Episode outlines" thread on the discussion boards (called "Scripts")

What are our timelines going to be for all of the plot threads
  • the discovery of the elves
  • Yavanna's crisis
  • the Council of the Valar
  • the Vision of Iluvatar
  • Manwe's anti war stance
  • what Melkor and Maiaron are doing (are they finding the elves first?)
  • Varda making the stars
Secondly, the frame:
  • Where do we end the frame for Season 1?
  • How do we conclude Gilraen's story? (we haven't seen her in a while)
  • What will be the frame for Season 2?
As always refer to episode notes and the audio session when available at http://silmfilm.mythgard.org/seasons/season-1/
 
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Session 1.14 (This is supposed to refer to Haakon's comment #182 in the last thread)
I still haven't listened to the last session, but I wanted to comment about Haakon's idea here. I think we are all on the right track with the War of Powers. We have the destruction of Beleriand in the War of Wrath as a precedent (even though it hasn't happened yet chronologically). What I wanted to say is, I think we can leave the protection of the Children to Iluvatar. Think about it, I am sure Haakon was only referring to the firstborn, not the followers (who knows where they might be?). If we set up this protection racket, then the Valar need to know where the Children of Men are sleeping as well and that is something we don't want to show yet. Even right after The Music in the Beginning of Days there were huge cataclysms as the Valar began to shape Arda. Iluvatar kept them hidden and I say "hidden" not "safe" through all that creation process. Maybe they don't even exist until they awake. Iluvatar can do the same here. He can keep them hidden despite the tumult. This is another reason why I prefer to keep the Children hidden from all before they wake. If Iluvatar can protect them from world building upheaval then I am sure he can protect them from the prying eyes of Melkor and his followers. This is part of the point I was trying to make when I referred to Gilfanon's Tale in the previous thread (the story about the elf who found the sleeping Men in the ages of the Stars). Tolkien quickly abandoned it. For what reason we do not know. It is wrapped up in when he abandoned the Lost Tales. But to me it doesn't fit. They weren't sleeping. That in itself raises issues of exposure to the elements and in Gilfanon's Tale waking up from tis so called "sleep" . To me, they didn't exist until their appointed time which means they had no part in the story.
 
Session 1.14 (This is supposed to refer to Haakon's comment #182 in the last thread)
I still haven't listened to the last session, but I wanted to comment about Haakon's idea here. I think we are all on the right track with the War of Powers. We have the destruction of Beleriand in the War of Wrath as a precedent (even though it hasn't happened yet chronologically). What I wanted to say is, I think we can leave the protection of the Children to Iluvatar. Think about it, I am sure Haakon was only referring to the firstborn, not the followers (who knows where they might be?). If we set up this protection racket, then the Valar need to know where the Children of Men are sleeping as well and that is something we don't want to show yet. Even right after The Music in the Beginning of Days there were huge cataclysms as the Valar began to shape Arda. Iluvatar kept them hidden and I say "hidden" not "safe" through all that creation process. Maybe they don't even exist until they awake. Iluvatar can do the same here. He can keep them hidden despite the tumult. This is another reason why I prefer to keep the Children hidden from all before they wake. If Iluvatar can protect them from world building upheaval then I am sure he can protect them from the prying eyes of Melkor and his followers. This is part of the point I was trying to make when I referred to Gilfanon's Tale in the previous thread (the story about the elf who found the sleeping Men in the ages of the Stars). Tolkien quickly abandoned it. For what reason we do not know. It is wrapped up in when he abandoned the Lost Tales. But to me it doesn't fit. They weren't sleeping. That in itself raises issues of exposure to the elements and in Gilfanon's Tale waking up from tis so called "sleep" . To me, they didn't exist until their appointed time which means they had no part in the story.
Yes I was only referring to the Firstborn. It seems that either their Awakening has taken place, or the Valar at least are not sure and don't want them harmed. So they set up some kind of shield. I have this idea that Manwë could do that by creating some kind of encircling storm. (I haven't listened to the last session either, by the way.)

EDIT: The idea of the shield obviously comes from the PubSil, and might not be relevant for our storyline. However, after the destruction of the Lamps and the marring of Arda, the Valar should be cautious with their powers and try to contain the damage they do. Also, we should keep in mind that The attack is on a rather small part of Middle-earth, which is marred by Melkor and the Valar could reason that probably no Children are being born there. If they keep the effects of the War to just that area, the Firstborn should be fine, awoken or not.
 
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In the previous podcast, Corey Olsen addressed the timeline issue thusly...

We will have the War, and then, after it all, see the elves awake at Cuivienen to end season 1.

Then, to begin season 2, we will step back in time a bit, show the elves awakening, introduce the mysterious rider in the woods, then have the distant far off sounds of battle, and then, AFTER all of that, Oromë finds them.

So, the reality will be that the Children have awakened, but the Valar haven't found them yet when the War happens, leaving the door open for Melkor to have stolen some of them prior to his own 'demise.'

It was a very 'have your cake and eat it too' solution.
 
In the previous podcast, Corey Olsen addressed the timeline issue thusly...

We will have the War, and then, after it all, see the elves awake at Cuivienen to end season 1.

Then, to begin season 2, we will step back in time a bit, show the elves awakening, introduce the mysterious rider in the woods, then have the distant far off sounds of battle, and then, AFTER all of that, Oromë finds them.

So, the reality will be that the Children have awakened, but the Valar haven't found them yet when the War happens, leaving the door open for Melkor to have stolen some of them prior to his own 'demise.'

It was a very 'have your cake and eat it too' solution.
So the Firstborn awaken both before and after the war?
Or do we just see them moving around or coming out of the woods or something this season, and go back and see them Awakening in season 2?
I have been seeing the opening of an elven eye as the final shot this season. But that's not necessary of course.
 
Haha, well, obviously they don't awaken twice! They awaken before the War, but are found after the War, in the most recent session recording.

The season still ends with a final shot of Cuivienen, and that will be the first time we see the elves on screen.

But...we will begin season 2 with a step back in time to their Awakening, and show that. Since they will also see Varda's stars appear and overhear the distant battle, the audience will figure out the timeframe. By the end of the first episode, we are caught up to where we left off in Season 1.
 
Yes. I do believe that is the easiest way to do it. It allows for the kidnapping of elves (pre-awakening or not), and still keeps us from seeing them onscreen until the very end of the season.
 
Do you picture one elf, a few, or a larger group? Any particular attributes? I mean this season.
 
In this season, I would like to just see a random group of elves come out of the woods on the shores of Cuivenin, establishing where we are going next season.
 
I like the way our adaption is evolving the issue of physical harm to the Powers. When we first had those discussions about Nesssa and Ungoliant and what damage was really being done to her we started to discuss the idea of investing in matter. Now that is coming to fruition with the awesome ideae of Eonwe's escape and the shedding of his body to be reborn. I still think it is important to show Powers at varying levels of permanence. Some shift shape like a coat in changeable weather while others are becoming bound to their preferred form. This slow shift will do us well when we get to scenes like the scarring of Melkor's hand. During the War of Powers I would like to see some of the combatants changing form easily, some in pain as physical harm is done and some doing the Eonwe exploding thing to give the idea that they are all at different stages. Some have invested in matter more than others.
 
I like the way our adaption is evolving the issue of physical harm to the Powers. When we first had those discussions about Nesssa and Ungoliant and what damage was really being done to her we started to discuss the idea of investing in matter. Now that is coming to fruition with the awesome ideae of Eonwe's escape and the shedding of his body to be reborn. I still think it is important to show Powers at varying levels of permanence. Some shift shape like a coat in changeable weather while others are becoming bound to their preferred form. This slow shift will do us well when we get to scenes like the scarring of Melkor's hand. During the War of Powers I would like to see some of the combatants changing form easily, some in pain as physical harm is done and some doing the Eonwe exploding thing to give the idea that they are all at different stages. Some have invested in matter more than others.
I agree.
There are many factors which should be considered with regards to the Powers' physical forms:
1. Are they shifting between them willingly? If so, as I stated in the last episode's thread, their various forms should demonstrate obvious advantages/disadvantages for the tasks they undertake.

2. Are they forced or coerced from their form? Unlike the first case, this is a case of actual attack or abuse, which should either mar or permanently destroy said form. As with any form of attack of this nature, it would also cause spiritual/emotional distress (can the Powers have PTSD?).

3. Similar to the second case, is the loss or sacrifice of the form a willing transformative process (Eonwe's case)? This may also destroy the form, but release some massive form of energy (question: would this also occur in case 2?).

4. Investment in a form. This is the case we most clearly see with Morgoth and Sauron later down the road (though it may also be used elsewhere in our adaptation). In this case, in a more overt way, the form is made a physical conduit and manifestation of the power; rather than just be a 'veil' over the top of the Power, in a sense at this point the Power becomes the form and vice versa (This also sets up natural cues for the Ring of Power). This form, however, basically become locked as time goes on, such that the destruction of the form and the Power are simultaneous (think of the nature of Sauron following the destruction of the Ring).
 
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(EDIT: outline for e12 and e13 in post #72)
Alright... I have modified my outline for episode 12 after having listened to the session. It has no frame material yet. In this version, I'm trying the suggestion from Dr Olsen that Mairon finds the Firstborn. I'm wiondering about whether he should take a horse and become the dark hunter the Eldar are afraid of.

EPISODE 12:

Manwë and Varda are on Taniquetil, looking at the view of wonderful Valinor. The gardens of Lorien, the woods of Oromë - the lands are in bliss: Valar , Valier and various Maiar are at peace, and the light of the Trees mingle as the silver of Telperion wanes and Laurelin’s golden light is waxing. Behind them we see the Máhanaxar, the Ring of Doom. It is empty. They then turn and look in the other direction – at Middle-earth. There, chaos reigns. The plants are not growing. Of the beasts, some are dying and some look monstrous. Terrible sounds of agony are heard. The land is in tumult: volcanoes are erupting, waves are crashing on the shore, earth crumbling into the sea and cyclones pass through forests, ripping up trees – Manwë has certainly lost his influence over there. Towards the north there are bogs and swamps, and in the far north ice is mounting, and there, sometimes covered by fumes and smoke, lies the shining palace of Utumno in black obsidian and glass.

Yavanna is in Middle-earth, in the decay and death of a kind and to an extent that makes her more and more sad. A monstrous beast breaks out of the woods and charges in her direction. She stops it, calms it, puts it to sleep. The tragic looks of the animal breaks her Valië heart. Oromë turns up. He is also worried. She implores him not to kill the beasts unless he has to. He says he is not only hunting beasts, but searching for the Children, who might or might not have awakened.

Yavanna returns to the peace and harmony of Valinor and is met by Aulë, who confesses his transgression and tells her of Ilúvatar’s intervention. She is glad that Aulë also is concerned but says that he should have spoken to her about it. Also, she is troubled by the image she gets of the Dwarves and is worried that they will kill defenceless Olvar. That would perhaps not be a problem though, if they had someone, a guardian…

She goes to Manwë and speaks of tree guardians. He rejects the idea but she reminds him that it was in the Music. He has a vision in which Ilúvatar makes him understand that Yavanna is right and also that there will be Eagles as well, that both of these groups of guardians were foretold by the Song and are part of Ilúvatar's plan. But the Trees of Yavanna will not arrive until at the awakening of the Children, and the Eagles will come just before that, but the timing of that was not revealed. In any case, the Valar cannot rely on their aid now. On the other hand, the vision has strengthened Manwë's faith in Ilúvatar's plan and in his own path of diplomacy, although the path includes an inevitable war.

Aulë is relieved and thankful and speaks openly of his experience with the Dwarves and Eru's intervention. Mairon hears this and as he looks around and notices the Valar’s positive reaction to Aulë’s story, he quietly leaves.

Mairon arrives in Utumno. Melkor greets him. The Maia tells the Vala about Aulë, and Melkor finds Aulë's behaviour revolting but also inspiring. He is also envious of Aulë because of Ilúvatar’s attention and generous treatment. He speaks to Mairon of the coming of the Children, and that he should create his own people, one that would match the so-called "Firstborn". When the Children of Ilúvatar eventually do come, surely they should prosper most under Melkor’s protection. They should obey him. He has come to the conclusion that he shall declare himself Lord of Middle-earth and that all Valar and Maiar are welcome to his realm as long as they bow to him. He says to Mairon, in a friendly way, that the building of Angband is progressing, but slowly, he could use Mairon there, "Are you with me – or against me?" Mairon is undecided. He has doubts, and is remorseful and wondering whether he has gone too far, maybe he is on the wrong path. Does he dare to take that step? He asks for some time to think, which Melkor gladly gives him, but the Vala says that time is moving on, he can’t wait with his decision forever. Mairon goes back to Valinor.


When Mairon brings his news to the Valar, most of them now expect Manwë to punish Melkor, imprison him or at least give him an ultimatum. But Manwë decides to send Eonwë to offer Melkor the seat next to him in Valinor. He must give up his Lordship of Middle-earth and never go back there, but he will be close to his brother, as in the beginning, as in the thought of Ilúvatar. Mairon is utterly disappointed with this and leaves Valinor, forever. (He takes a horse?)

The Valar discuss the fact that the Children are about to awaken and the state of Middle-earth is really bad. It is clearly perilous land. Even if Melkor should leave, there are plenty of dangers. And there is just faint hope that Melkor shall come to Valinor and repent. Mandos confirms the imminent awakening and Varda decides to collect the light of the Trees to kindle more stars.

We see Mairon travelling in Middle-earth. A great Eagle suddenly sweeps across the sky. It cries, making Mairon uncomfortable. Another Eagle follows the next. Mairon changes his route to avoid being spotted.

Eonwë comes to Utumno and delivers his message to Melkor. Melkor is offended by this and decides that he has had enough. This humiliation cannot go on. He calls for Gothmog, who instantly appears in the doorway. Melkor then invites Eonwë a tour of his palace. He shows him his dungeons, and some monsters of horn and hide. A pool with tentacled beasts.

We see Mairon travelling in Middle-earth. He journeys (rides?) along a mountain range, just above the tree line. It is a rather quiet part of Middle-earth. He looks like he is in deep thought. Suddenly he looks up. He has heard a noise he does not recognize. There, over by the sea. Voices?

Back in Utumno, Melkor shows Eonwë a prison cell, which he tells him is where he is to spend the rest of eternity. Eonwë says that that is a mistake, he is a peace messanger, but the Vala orders his captain to arrest Eonwë, who is a spy and an aggressor. The Balrog grabs Eonwë and throws him into a wall. He picks him up and starts to throttle him with his flaming, clawed hands.

Thuringwethil shows up, saying to Melkor that there is a guest. The Vala leaves Gothmog and Eonwë. Gothmog inflicts as much pain as possible, showing what Eonwë’s eternity is going to be like. But Eonwë relinquishes his body and escapes in spirit form.

Melkor’s guest is Mairon, who tells Melkor that he has news. He kneels before him and says, “My Lord, I have found the Children”.


(In episode 13: Mairon gets instructions, the stars, the war, Melkor goes to Mandos, Mairon takes command of Angband, the Elves at Cuiviénen)
 
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Alright... I have modified my outline for episode 12 after having listened to the session. It has no frame material yet. In this version, I'm trying the suggestion from Dr Olsen that Mairon finds the Firstborn. I'm wiondering about whether he should take a horse and become the dark hunter the Eldar are afraid of.
I'm about a third of the way through the last session...will comment more once I finish listening.

One broad comment: Though I like the trajectory of this as an episode, it almost feels like it also needs to be 2hrs to accommodate all that needs to happen. Or does some of this move into the finale?
 
I'm about a third of the way through the last session...will comment more once I finish listening.

One broad comment: Though I like the trajectory of this as an episode, it almost feels like it also needs to be 2hrs to accommodate all that needs to happen. Or does some of this move into the finale?
I actually think it will fit within a 45 minute episode. Some of the things sketched won't take long. Unless there is extended dialogue or action, a scene could be just a couple of minutes. EDIT: so I'm thinking all this goes into episode 12.

That being said - perhaps episode 12 should be just under an hour and episode 13 about 1.5 hrs?
 
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Mairon arrives in Utumno. Melkor greets him. The Maia tells the Vala about Aulë, and Melkor finds Aulë's behaviour revolting but also inspiring. He is also envious of Aulë because of Ilúvatar’s attention and generous treatment. He speaks to Mairon of the coming of the Children, and that he should create his own people, one that would match the so-called "Firstborn".

Maybe I'm trying to hit this detail too much but, I don't think that Melkor would decide to create Orcs if he knows about Ilúvatar’s intervention in the creation of Dwarves. It would be clear at that point that Aulë could not create beings of free will. While Melkor might think that is just a weakness on Aulë's part, he would still be afraid that Ilúvatar would personally speak to and scold him. If he was defiant enough to still do his own thing, he would not repent like Aulë did. He wouldn't want or trust in the mercy and pity of Ilúvatar. With all his pride and arrogance, Melkor is not afraid of Manwe and the other Valar but, he would not (yet) dare come face to face with Eru. Rather, I think he believes Eru would never directly intervene in Arda. Aulë's plan seems like a much better motivation for creating his own people than what actually happened.

It also seems easier to justify Mairon notifying Melkor if he believes the Dwarves are a more immediate threat. When Aulë goes public with his plan, they know the Dwarves will not be around until well after the Firstborn and that Ilúvatar has incorporated them into his plan. I think it's easier to justify Melkor and Mairon going bad by thinking that Manwe and the other Valar do not understand Ilúvatar's plan than for them to think they should ignore/defy Ilúvatar.
 
I had originally thought that perhaps Mairon didn't get the whole story before taking news to Melkor, but I don't think that news of Ilúvatar's intervention would necessarily preclude his creating the orcs. He may, after all, think Ilúvatar toothless in this matter. Nothing bad happened to Aulë, why should anything bad happen to him. Besides, he may think he's found a loophole.
 
The more I think about it - what does Aulë actually say afterwards? He could summarise it, saying "I created my own Children. I know, it was wrong. Ilúvatar told me so. He spoke to me! I realised I was wrong. But he let my Children be! My own Children are part of his plan... But their awakening will be later than his Firstborn, of course!"

From Melkor's and Mairon's perspective, the conclusion will be that it's pretty much ok to create their own Children.
 
I had originally thought that perhaps Mairon didn't get the whole story before taking news to Melkor, but I don't think that news of Ilúvatar's intervention would necessarily preclude his creating the orcs. He may, after all, think Ilúvatar toothless in this matter. Nothing bad happened to Aulë, why should anything bad happen to him. Besides, he may think he's found a loophole.
Exactly! There is a loophole (That's what Melkor would think). If you create your own beings out of already created ones - that should be ok!
 
I am just going to raise ideas as I think of them, so there will be no continuity to my posts.

I have been thinking that if the decision is made that Mairon is going to come over to Melkor's side in Season 1 ie. the last episode of Season 1, then it will be fun to lull the audience into thinking that they know what is happening and then turn the tables. If at the last conversation that Melkor and Mairon have, Melkor gives him the name Sauron (big reveal!!) and hands over the running of Angband to him, the viewers will think that Melkor is done for and that now the big bad guy will be Sauron not realising that Melkor is due to make a comeback in Season 2.
 
Oh, that is a good thought! But I think we were planning to save the Sauron name-change for much later.....like when he rules Tol Sirion after stealing it from Finrod 3 seasons from now.

I agree though that Melkor's defeat should seem final and tidy, and knowing that Gothmog and Mairon/Sauron survive and Angband is undiscovered should make the audience draw some conclusions about the passing of the torch.
 
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