Session 1.3

MatthewW

New Member
I think I agree with all of the conclusions above...don't have time to go into great detail right now.

But I know the episode is today, so I wanted to get one quick thought out there:

I think one nice way to make this work is to have Estel looking at the mural with some depiction of the Music on it, then as Elrond begins telling the story, the mural comes to life, and transitions into our visual depiction of the Ainulindale. This suggests that the imagery we use is not intended to be 'historical.'
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Ok, so in summary, since I know that Phillip is probably either has sent a brief to the hosts within the past 24 hours or is doing so now, I like Haakon's idea of zooming in on Rivendell from above. I also like that we see the Ainulindale developing in Estel's mind. Bear in mind that if we see the Vision at the same time that we hear the Music, we shall have to make decisions regarding exactly what each of the themes represent. What is happening when Iluvatar changes the themes. I think that everyone is leaning to the teaching of Estel beginning when he is looking at a mural or tapestry, but (and I would have to look back and see where this came from to give proper credit) I also like the idea of first seeing him running amok (as children are wont to do) through Imladhris, and a conversation between Elrond and Gilraen, the conflict being that Elrond feels the need to educate Estel and give him something constructive to do, so that he is not running around like some 'wild thing', whereas Gilraen is hesitant to have Estel be educated only by elvish methods.
 

Richard Palazzo

New Member
Hey Nicholas, I agree with your position here. When Sam Gamgee talks about the great old stories, his perspective is not that they are symbolic. The power of the stories is that they really happened. Also, I think it is important to pin the whole saga to Iluvatar, a real being, whose real sovereignty and real will are so essential to Tolkien's worldview as it comes out in his writings.
 

Rowen

New Member
Has anyone played the game El Shaddai, Ascension of the Metatron? It's very artwork and music heavy with a lot of abstract pieces and watercolory landscapes that shift your perception of what they are.
Here's a link to the environment art
http://www.creativeuncut.com/art_el-shaddai-ascension-of-the-metatron_b.html
And here are some of the stills. From a visual standpoint, I would think that could be a good way to do the visuals of the Ainulindule, and keep it animated, but without getting too Fantasia-y. I'm also including a link to the main theme, orchestrated.
 

Attachments

Hi! Nice to be here.

So after listening to last episode, I have a few concerns, and a couple of suggestions.

The thing I don't want us to lose is the effect the Music has on the mythology. The Music not only serves as a delicate way to explain fate and free will, as Corey's talked about in the past. It also makes for a beautiful way to explain how things like sorrow, grief, anger, and hate, are woven into the fabric of creation.

Here are my concerns:​
  1. Are we stripping away the mythic power of the story?
    1. The heavy focus on the frame, putting the Music at the end of the episode, and choosing to share the Music through Elrond's voice, to me those serve to undercut the mythological impact this project is trying to achieve.
    2. What makes the Silmarillion and the Ainulindale in particular both beautiful and evocative is the ethereal nature of the prose.
    3. If we're adapting the force of Tolkien's elevated prose into television, the show should be comfortable within that grandiosity.
      1. By grandiosity I mean visual and aural. I don't think having a character talk in an elevated way captures the same effect
      2. Focusing so much on Rivendell, and throwing the Music at the end, read as reluctant to go into the story we're trying to tell
  2. Which story are we primarily telling? Estel's or the story of the Beginning of Eä and Arda?

Suggestions:​
  1. I don't see why the show can't start with a very brief cosmic shot. Maybe start with Elrond reading the first line of the Silmarillion. But then cut to Rivendell and have Estel say something like, "Elrond, why are you telling me this?"
  2. That way, we're introducing the audience to the main story first, that is, how the world came to be and why it is the way it is. But then we're moved to a more comfortable location that helps us digest it.
    1. After that we can focus on Rivendell for a bit, and the initial shot will help us keep a foot in the cosmic door, so to speak.
  3. I think the Music has to be a little hard to grasp. What the Music gets at is the connection between the ungraspable and divine and the day to day

For visual inspiration, has anybody seen "Tree of Life"? Here is the scene I'm thinking about that could be really appropriate for us (ignore the voiceover)

 

Carlia

Member
I know that I am late but I would like to make a small sugestion about how to introduce a part of the Ainulindalë.

Has anyone considered Miriel? Maybe it could be her voice talking while we see the images unfold and eventually becoming fabric in her embroidery?
 

ouzaru

Well-Known Member
Did we not ever get around to an outline for this Episode, as we were challenged to make at the episode's end? Should this be in the script section? Did it get done and I'm not finding it anywhere?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Well, better late than never!

Here's the Script Outline for Episode 1 thus far:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/111IOmWkRdtUBh_m9m-bzrwU_BPtA_OCSWCvPdGbddBk/edit

This document is open for editing, so please feel free to add to it. Use 'strikethrough' rather than deleting what is there, and color-code your comments, so we can keep track of who is adding what. Also feel free to add comments on the side explaining the reasoning behind your changes if you'd like.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
To me, the jump from Estel breaking the artifact to Elrond teaching a list is slightly unclear. I understand that it has to do with the tapestries but then Elrond perhaps should see his initial excitement. He could watch Estel from an unseen position until Estel accidentally breaks the artifact.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I'm not completely against that idea, but to clarify, the connection is that the breaking of the object causes Elrond to decide that A) Estel cannot be allowed to run wild any longer, and B) he needs to understand his history of he is to respect it.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I understand. The difference would be that if he sees the interest Estel has in the stories the tapestries depict, teaching would also be a gift, or a way of nurturing that interest into an understanding, into knowledge and wisdom. It would be less of a punishment, and in that way more like something Elrond would do.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
This hinges on the artifact. (So determining what it is will be important!) The suggestion that it was a vase with the likeness of Elwing on it (Elrond's mother, Estel's ancestor) would be reason enough for Elrond to think, this boy needs to learn about his heritage, and the list would be an attempt to place Elwing(?) in the flow of history. So....Elrond is saying something like, 'Elwing was the last heir of Doriath, and mother of Elros, who became the first king of Numenor, whose progeny included Silmarien, the mother of the first Lord of Adunië, whose offspring were the founders of Arnor and Gondor,' so as you can see, she's very important and please show some respect to my stuff.

Not saying we want to do that, but that is the transition - it hinges on the item Estel knocks over while playing/running wild in a place of memory that he is ignorant about.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Yes that's important. And I understand the transition you are making. It just seems to me that if Elrond responds to the breaking of an artifact by going through a list of names, it will make him kind of... I don't know, not very empathetic, and not the wise person one would expect him to be.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I agree that that is the danger of this scene - we don't want to see Elrond as a dry, boring teacher, as he is our storyteller for the first season, and is quite experienced with sharing his lore with others. This is meant to be a case of him not quite gauging his audience correctly, a mistake he corrects in Estel's first lesson. But I agree that we cannot be too heavy-handed with it, or Elrond will come across unfavorably.

I do like your idea of Elrond being there naturally (it's his library/study, after all), and just in the next room over. That makes the sound of the breaking object something that would bring Estel's antics to his attention and make his appearance in the doorway very natural and not just like Estel has comedically bad timing...but also give him the chance to observe what Estel was doing immediately before.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
He could first notice Estel playing in the room and looking at the tapestries. Then he could smile and go back into his study until he hears the sound of Estel breaking the artifact.
 
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