Session 1.5

Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
Here are the questions for the next episode on Friday October 9, 2015 which relate to season 1, episode 3.
  • How should we depict the initial relationship between Melkor and the Valar?
  • How do we do flashbacks to the Void? (Frame within frame??)
  • What are our visuals for the Void? In what visual context are Melkor and Varda meeting?
Remember to refer to the overarching season 1 notes from Episode 1.1 http://silmfilm.mythgard.org/episode-1-1-plot-overview/ in your deliberations on these questions.
 
Melkor's fall is the central point here. I think there is enough really good drama here, and that we should just let it play out, and not have too many interruptions from the frame.

Concerning the flashback to the void. What if it was Varda giving the flashback story to Manwe?
Maybe Manwe could have a conversation with Varda about his concerns pertaining to Melkor, and she could tell him about Melkor's sojourns in the void. This could lead us smoothly into the relationship between Varda and Melkor. It also keeps us closer to the main story.

As for the visual portrayal of the void. Melkor's wanderings in the void were pre-Arda, so he wouldn't have a corporeal body. I don't know if we want to do the same thing we did with the Ainulindale (using lights and textures). That might be jarring in this instance.
Though, if we were to just have Elrond cut in and tell it, that might decrease the strangeness of it due to his distance from the story.

But in the end I don't think we should let visual transitions get in the way of telling our story well. So ,for now at least, I really like Varda telling Manwe.
 
Haven't been around much due to some issues with work, but I had a quick thought on the portrayal of pre-Arda Melkor. As we had discussed using lighted colors and textures to represent the Ainur during that period, the image of a flaming volcanic plume springs to mind. Here's an image that kind of illustrates what I mean:
https://news.illinois.edu/blog/files/6367/205996/43616.jpg

Also, I couldn't find a video I liked enough to repost here, but Melkor's trips through the Void make me think of Parallax from the Green Lantern film. Minus the skull face.
 
Ok if we have seen the Valar discovering cooperation, by some kind of trial and error process, Melkor should initially be seen doing the same kind of things - creating extreme heat and cold and sometimes causing trouble or making the others confused or annoyed, and sometimes accidentally giving birth to beauty (snow flakes). One picture I get is Melkor watching Aulë and his gang of Maia followers (Sauron, Curumo) shaping mountains and he kind of scoffs and creates a volcano in a spectacular way. He could do stuff like that out of joy, not to destroy. We should get the feeling that he is trouble, and likeable in some way, but full of himself and of course dangerous, but not evil. Then we get the story which puts him in a more sinister light, about how he approached Varda and was rejected. I believe this need to be done as a regular flashback. So, in order to avoid doing a double flashback, we shouldn't have a frame this episode. Both settings are established, and we had a lot of frame in episode one and two, so we could just have the Arda setting in episode 3.
 
Actually, I'm thinking we could probably avoid double framing in a different way. Just have it come up in the telling that Varda didn't trust Melkor, then have Estel ask why, giving us the ability to flash back to pre-Arda.
 
Now that I have finally listened to the last "session" (trying to catch up my reading or Jonathon Strange and Mr Norrell) I can comment and build on what the hosts talked about last time.
I think this episode needs to be approached completely differently in terms of frame and main story mostly because of the relationship the elves have with Melkor. The Valaquenta states " Last of all is set the name Melkor, He who arises in might. But that name he has forfeited; and the Noldor, who among the elves suffered most from his malice, will not utter it, and they name him Morgoth, the Dark Enemy of the World."
How on earth is Elrond (who was raised by two of the two of the sons of Feanor who are Noldor, was shield bearer to Gilgalad the high king of the Noldor in the 2nd age and married a descendant of the Noldor, Celebrian) going to give him the treatment we want from this episode. None of the elves in Rivendell will even utter his name (Melkor) let alone give him a sympathetic story.
I feel that the best way to handle the episode is to have the frame story and Melkor's story run in parallel with no narrator and how both stories progress will depend upon how far we want to show Melkor's descent towards the dark lord he eventually becomes but even that will be not to a great extent as we want to show a mostly conflicted character with flaws, not altogether evil. To do a sympathetic portrayal and to have the two stories run in parallel, Melkor's story needs to be from his perspective (sorry Gabriel).

So what is the story?
Let's have Estel finding a riddle about some treasure that Elrond holds dear and then heading off into the wilds around Rivendell to find it, a clearly foolish move for a young boy. The treasure could be something from his dearly departed wife (take that however you want to) Celebrian, which allows us to bring in some of Elrond's backstory. Estel takes a literal interpretation of the riddle which leads him away from Rivendell but unbeknownst (is that really a word?) to him the treasure is not physical and resides within Elrond's heart or memories. This will clearly mirror Melkor's quest for the flame imperishable. Melkor's meeting with Varda can be mirrored in an encounter that Estel has on his travels.
In the middle of the episode the story has to show Melkor's descent into Arda and his joining in the creative process and maybe going through the whole "they don't understand me" adolescent thing as long as it is not too puerile. One of the other threads had a great suggestion about Melkor interacting with some of Aule's Maiar (including Sauron) to solve an issue. This could be related to the melting point of metal and the creation of the forge, obviously associated with Aule and is something that Aule embraces but maybe Melkor feels that the idea for extreme heat is his alone and he forgot to take out a patent.
Estel's journey needs to mirror Melkor's and both have to lead to folly and maybe arrogance and the climax may be that they surprises themselves by a violent and unprovoked reaction, the lesson being that the desire for a thing that you do not understand can lead you down the wrong paths.
I don't even think that there should be any reference in the frame to Melkor because the elves only call him Morgoth and that name should not be introduced until it is clear that Melkor is going bad. The frame should just be Estel's journey and let the viewer draw their own conclusions.
This whole approach will avoid the "frame within a frame" dilemma.

As to the relationship between the Valar and Melkor I see this as being a solo episode for Melkor with not much interaction. Melkor is a loner and feels himself to be self sufficient as he has a part of all the gifts of the other Ainur, in other words, he doesn't need them to be complete and he does not interact in the music making in the halls with the other Ainur. In the same way in Episode 2 that the Valar find that they are interacting with each other in ways they do not expect we should show Melkor starting to tinker at the edges of the other's creations and maybe showing things getting out of control and coming to ruin which was not his original intention. He may also discover that he has a surprisingly huge amount of power. The interaction between Melkor and the other Valar needs to start the same way as in Episode 2, but Melkor refuses to compromise and stays the valar of extremes and feels himself to be right, thus we see the beginning of pride.

As to the technical issues, I feel the visuals should be the same style as in episode 1, otherwise the audience might not understand that Melkor's story starts in the time before the world. As to how to visualise the void, I think we need to show the blackness around Melkor and the Timeless Halls receding into the background but always shown. This will get across the point that he was searching in the wrong place for the flame imperishable and that without Iluvatar there is nothing, literally. Obviously void is totally black (or is it?) but to portray it it needs to look more like a dark fog, the depths of the sea showing little visibility comes to mind.
 
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Good ideas. I'd just like to add to the suggestion about Melkor and Aulë's Maiar that I think Curumo should be there. I find the differences and similarities between Sauron and the future Saruman a really interesting topic and would like to see both their stories begin in this episode. Curumo could have developed a stronger cooperation and connection with Aulë, being some kind of favourite, although Sauron perhaps shows more power. Melkor could give Sauron credit for this in a mutual creative process, but ignore Curumo. If Aulë and Melkor have a disagreement of some kind, as you suggest, Sauron could at least partially take Melkor's side. Curumo, on the other hand, could feel impressed by Melkor but as he is hurt by Melkor ignoring him, he takes his master Aulë's side.
 
I don't think the Tolkien Prof quite got to the point I was making in relation to the name Melkor. The point was to do with the frame. The name I can concede, but the rancour with which the elves hold Melkor is so extreme that there is no way that Elrond or any of his people will in any way show Melkor in the way we want to portray it and I think it will be good to show that those feelings still prevail thousands of years later in elvish culture. To them he is the Dark Enemy, nothing more. He will be forever in the void, and that is not long enough for the elves. My argument was in relation to the frame for the episode and removing the frame from the teacher/student dynamic we seem to have settled upon while at the same time progressing the frame story. That way we avoid showing a disconnect between the hatred the elves will proclaim for Melkor and a sympathetic and more complex story-line. Either that or we completely play down the hatred for Melkor thing which I would not favour.
 
I don't think the Tolkien Prof quite got to the point I was making in relation to the name Melkor. The point was to do with the frame. The name I can concede, but the rancour with which the elves hold Melkor is so extreme that there is no way that Elrond or any of his people will in any way show Melkor in the way we want to portray it and I think it will be good to show that those feelings still prevail thousands of years later in elvish culture. To them he is the Dark Enemy, nothing more. He will be forever in the void, and that is not long enough for the elves. My argument was in relation to the frame for the episode and removing the frame from the teacher/student dynamic we seem to have settled upon while at the same time progressing the frame story. That way we avoid showing a disconnect between the hatred the elves will proclaim for Melkor and a sympathetic and more complex story-line. Either that or we completely play down the hatred for Melkor thing which I would not favour.
I haven't been able to listen to the session but I think you are making a valid point. Also, it's connected to thoughts I am having about the frame. I'm concerned about the risk that the frame, being an effective carrier of information, is used that way too much, leaving less room for viewers to make conclusions of their own, and thereby taking away some of the mystery and, if you will, poetry of the story. Viewers can infer a lot by a composition of visual sequences, and having characters delivering information lines often makes a story less interesting and less enjoyable.
I'll get back on this when I've listened to the session.
 
Melkor's fall is the central point here. I think there is enough really good drama here, and that we should just let it play out, and not have too many interruptions from the frame.

Concerning the flashback to the void. What if it was Varda giving the flashback story to Manwe?
Maybe Manwe could have a conversation with Varda about his concerns pertaining to Melkor, and she could tell him about Melkor's sojourns in the void. This could lead us smoothly into the relationship between Varda and Melkor. It also keeps us closer to the main story.

As for the visual portrayal of the void. Melkor's wanderings in the void were pre-Arda, so he wouldn't have a corporeal body. I don't know if we want to do the same thing we did with the Ainulindale (using lights and textures). That might be jarring in this instance.
Though, if we were to just have Elrond cut in and tell it, that might decrease the strangeness of it due to his distance from the story.

But in the end I don't think we should let visual transitions get in the way of telling our story well. So ,for now at least, I really like Varda telling Manwe.
One of the things that draws me to Tolkien is his frequent associations with christian theology. Melkor's fall, and other falls often include and element of desiring or loving the creation over the creator. We see this in Melkor's desire for the Flame and perhaps wishing to supplant Iluvatar.
 
Here is the outline we are working on for Episode 3:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cf05UE42RzeqKSQlRI3pBlvF7h-fLYUuc_Gf26ojQrs/edit?pref=2&pli=1

Please comment with any suggestions!

The discussion of how we arrived at this outline is available on YouTube here:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL03lhuoANnIfxxPZAK_XmR6qXSq6G0Dtd
Good work! I would like to add, if possible, that in the Act III Resolution, Elrond could say that fear of darkness is one of its most powerful weapons (or something like that).
 
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