Session 2.01

That sounds, hoom... That sounds a bit, well, like something, burárum, not exactly what you might call orcish, but not the exact opposite either, hoom, more like something reminding me of, well, something else, which I will have to think about. Best leave it at that for now; it will evolve, like plants, if given enough time. So, hoom, time for sleep, would you not agree? But that is probably just me, in the older part of the world...hoom...
 
Something like this?

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Note: Until we do casting, I'll be picturing Tom Hiddleston as Fëanor, just because ;)
 
So you're saying that our part of the world didn't exist until Europeans found out about it? How very Numenorean... ;)

At any rate, I do think that some decisions about the main story will be affected by the frame, but I think we can work on those down the road.

I feel like the Darkening of Valinor is the most dramatic place to wrap up Season 2, but we may have to manufacture a bit of the story to fill in the blanks. After all, we do want to be impacted by the suffering that we see.
 
Haakon said:
Thematically, we have at least two possibilities:
  1. The loss of innocence. The elves move to the paradisal Valinor, but the journey is in fact sort of like eating the fobidden fruit and the knowledge the Noldor gain lead to disaster. If we're making this theme prominent we should consider including the first kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos.
  2. Hubris and conceit. The conceit of the Valar, thinking their care is better than the world Eru has conceived. The conceit of Ossë, claiming elves for himself. The hubris of Fëanor. Melkor is of course full of hubris and conceit, but he also takes the role of a punisher of the conceited, which is interesting. If we choose this theme, I think we could end with the darkening and death of Finwë, including the Thieves' Quarrel of Morgoth and Ungoliant with the balrog rescue.
These alternatives are obviously two aspects of the same process, but the two perspectives would lead to two different kinds of stories, I believe. The first one focuses on some kind of inherent bad thing about desire for knowledge. The second is more about the dangers of putting oneself in a special place, giving oneself a status above others.
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Hey everyone. I'm new here (though I have listened to almost all the podcasts). Out of these two, I would vote for something closer to the second. I agree with MithLuin that ending with the death of Finwë is a bit too much of a cliffhanger. It should be the Darkening of Valinor (end of Chapter 8) or the Burning of the Ships at Losgar (end of Chapter 9).

The former suggests a theme that has Melkor more involved, and the latter one that has the Noldor more involved.
 
Welcome! New blood is good for this project :)

I think that Melkor should be a player, definitely, and we should see his plot unwind as the season progresses...but...we should *also* see that the seeds of everything that will go wrong were there without him. One of those tensions between fate and free will. But if we have to choose, yes, I'd rather see the Noldor as orchestrating their own downfall.

One scene that came up as we were discussing the Super Secret Necromantic Orc Project was the possibility of having Melkor standing over Míriel's body in Lorien at some point. It's the type of scene that would be really ominous and wordless and the viewers would have to parse out their own meaning to it, but it could be a cool opportunity to visually show Melkor's intent. If we wanted to, we could also include a flashback of him standing over newly-stolen elves in Angband.
 
Welcome, Tungol!

Obviously Melkor is prominent in the later episodes. The Noldor will be more and more prominent as the season moves on, from the time they arrive in Valinor and onwards. (Before that, I think we should keep their prominent role hidden, and kind of show the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri as more or less equal.)

The story of the Noldor goes on of course, and the way we break will be in the middle of their story, whichever of the two roughly described alternatives we choose. So, in a way, to make the season work as one whole coherent thing we should avoid making the story of the Noldor the most prominent theme. They will be prominent anyway, don't worry.

I suggest that we instead choose the following perspective: in season one, conflict among the Valar led to war. In this season, the Valar bring the Children into this conflict.
In season three, we should take the next step and show the Noldor taking conflict yet another step.

So I'm saying we should end this season with the darkening, the murder of Finwë and the quarrel between the thieves and the balrogs rescuing Melkor. (By the way: this will be a good way to end the Angband power struggle story)
 
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If Season 2 is ending with the Darkening of Valinor (until Ungoliant is off screen), then I will have to rework Season 3. Maybe something like this:

Season 3 (Not the current one!)
  1. News from Formenos and the Oath of Fëanor (Melkor named Morgoth)
  2. Kinslaying at Alqualondë; Doom of Mandos
  3. [Meanwhile, in Middle Earth - First Battle - Orcs attack all the elves of Beleriand - death of Denethor] Finarfin turns back, Fëanor steals the ships, and Fingolfin is abandoned - burning of the ships at Losgar
  4. Morgoth recalls the Orcs from Beleriand to deal with the threat of the Noldor; Death of Fëanor; Fingolfin undertakes the crossing of the Helcaraxë
  5. Imprisonment of Maedhros; death of Elenwë on the Helcaraxë
  6. Creation of the Sun and Moon?
  7. Fingolfin arrives in Middle Earth; Fingon rescues Maedhros
  8. Maedhros awards Fingolfin the High Kingship and removes his brothers to the East
  9. Feast of Reuniting
  10. Dreams of Turgon and Finrod; foundation of Nargothrond and Gondolin
  11. Dagor Aglareb
  12. Siege of Angband begins; we see some tower construction and havens fortifying going on; Completion of Nargothrond and Gondolin. Caranthir meets the Dwarves
  13. Children of Finarfin spill the beans in Doriath (we meet Luthien?); Quenya becomes the language of the kinslayers; First sight of Glaurung
And then save Men for Season 4. This season seems to start strong and then somewhat unravel towards the end, so I'm not exactly satisfied with this, but I figured it's good to have an idea of where we're going, and it's much easier to change things now. There is, of course, more than one version of the Annals to go by, so what happens in what order is not *entirely* fixed in canon.


Also, bigger news, the website has been updated and you can sign up for the Webinar sessions for Season 2 now! :)

http://silmfilm.mythgard.org/seasons/season-2/
 
MithLuin said:
If Season 2 is ending with the Darkening of Valinor (until Ungoliant is off screen), then I will have to rework Season 3. Maybe something like this:

Season 3 (Not the current one!)
  1. News from Formenos and the Oath of Fëanor (Melkor named Morgoth)
  2. Kinslaying at Alqualondë; Doom of Mandos
  3. [Meanwhile, in Middle Earth - First Battle - Orcs attack all the elves of Beleriand - death of Denethor] Finarfin turns back, Fëanor steals the ships, and Fingolfin is abandoned - burning of the ships at Losgar
  4. Morgoth recalls the Orcs from Beleriand to deal with the threat of the Noldor; Death of Fëanor; Fingolfin undertakes the crossing of the Helcaraxë
  5. Imprisonment of Maedhros; death of Elenwë on the Helcaraxë
  6. Creation of the Sun and Moon?
  7. Fingolfin arrives in Middle Earth; Fingon rescues Maedhros
  8. Maedhros awards Fingolfin the High Kingship and removes his brothers to the East
  9. Feast of Reuniting
  10. Dreams of Turgon and Finrod; foundation of Nargothrond and Gondolin
  11. Dagor Aglareb
  12. Siege of Angband begins; we see some tower construction and havens fortifying going on; Completion of Nargothrond and Gondolin. Caranthir meets the Dwarves
  13. Children of Finarfin spill the beans in Doriath (we meet Luthien?); Quenya becomes the language of the kinslayers; First sight of Glaurung
And then save Men for Season 4. This season seems to start strong and then somewhat unravel towards the end, so I'm not exactly satisfied with this, but I figured it's good to have an idea of where we're going, and it's much easier to change things now. There is, of course, more than one version of the Annals to go by, so what happens in what order is not *entirely* fixed in canon.


Also, bigger news, the website has been updated and you can sign up for the Webinar sessions for Season 2 now! :)

http://silmfilm.mythgard.org/seasons/season-2/
Click to expand...
In addition, everyone who signed up for season 1 will receive an invite to season 2 netmoot. I'll also be posting the netmoot link on the facebook SilmFilm page.
 
MithLuin said:
If Season 2 is ending with the Darkening of Valinor (until Ungoliant is off screen), then I will have to rework Season 3. Maybe something like this:

Season 3 (Not the current one!)
  1. News from Formenos and the Oath of Fëanor (Melkor named Morgoth)
  2. Kinslaying at Alqualondë; Doom of Mandos
  3. [Meanwhile, in Middle Earth - First Battle - Orcs attack all the elves of Beleriand - death of Denethor] Finarfin turns back, Fëanor steals the ships, and Fingolfin is abandoned - burning of the ships at Losgar
  4. Morgoth recalls the Orcs from Beleriand to deal with the threat of the Noldor; Death of Fëanor; Fingolfin undertakes the crossing of the Helcaraxë
  5. Imprisonment of Maedhros; death of Elenwë on the Helcaraxë
  6. Creation of the Sun and Moon?
  7. Fingolfin arrives in Middle Earth; Fingon rescues Maedhros
  8. Maedhros awards Fingolfin the High Kingship and removes his brothers to the East
  9. Feast of Reuniting
  10. Dreams of Turgon and Finrod; foundation of Nargothrond and Gondolin
  11. Dagor Aglareb
  12. Siege of Angband begins; we see some tower construction and havens fortifying going on; Completion of Nargothrond and Gondolin. Caranthir meets the Dwarves
  13. Children of Finarfin spill the beans in Doriath (we meet Luthien?); Quenya becomes the language of the kinslayers; First sight of Glaurung
http://silmfilm.mythgard.org/seasons/season-2/
Click to expand...

Though this might make Season 2 a bit slower, I think this would be better than to have Season 3 Ep1 with Fëanor's death. Myself, I don't like the idea of building the character up through Se2 and killed after a break then into Se3 first off. It maybe too much to suggest (if it is 1 Episode off between Se2 Ep13 and Se3 Ep1) to have his death at the end of Se2, but it would make for a greater ending. It felt very much once the Oath Of Fëanor happened, everything was tunnel visioned - being impulsive, quick, and blinded by fury, which could be compressed and offer a action paced few eps. Recalling my reaction for the first time to Fëanor's death there was a epic shift, which passed a focus from Fëanor to the Sons Of Fëanor. Not admitting it would be easy to have Fëanor around for one season, which is why I like the above timeline for Se3. Just a small thought, I'm also new here so just offering a small thought. :)
 
NorthernStrider said:
Though this might make Season 2 a bit slower, I think this would be better than to have Season 3 Ep1 with Fëanor's death. Myself, I don't like the idea of building the character up through Se2 and killed after a break then into Se3 first off. It maybe too much to suggest (if it is 1 Episode off between Se2 Ep13 and Se3 Ep1) to have his death at the end of Se2, but it would make for a greater ending. It felt very much once the Oath Of Fëanor happened, everything was tunnel visioned - being impulsive, quick, and blinded by fury, which could be compressed and offer a action paced few eps. Recalling my reaction for the first time to Fëanor's death there was a epic shift, which passed a focus from Fëanor to the Sons Of Fëanor. Not admitting it would be easy to have Fëanor around for one season, which is why I like the above timeline for Se3. Just a small thought, I'm also new here so just offering a small thought. :)
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...and not to get ahead of myself by any means on suggestions, but looking at it I think balancing Se2 and Se3 will be the only tight spot of where to end things and continue them in the next. But from memory I don't think there is another story line that would not be able to fit nicely in a few part eps or a full Season alone.
 
I think the reasoning behind putting Feanor's death in such a weird place was A) it's an actual genuine surprise, considering how he's been built up. Not exactly Red-Wedding Material, but up there. B) Its odd and awkward placement in the season emphasizes how off the rails Feanor is. It is pretty clown-shoes for him to think he can just storm Utumno as soon as he arrives in Middle Earth, and I would want to spend the first two episodes watching him really push everyone when they're clearly exhausted and unready, and have the assault immediately fail quite horribly. The progression for Feanor in the first couple episodes would really be building impatience to hurry up and do what he came to do, ignoring anything to do with kingdom building or reconnecting with the Moriquendi, and then to have it sputter out in a rush of overconfidence and bitterness... it's less "epic", but that's kind of the point. Feanor's end is pretty ignomonious, unnecessary, and totally of his own making. This is not the passing of a great hero; in much the same way as Melkor and Sauron eventually go out as petty, fairly one-dimensional "darklords", Feanor's fall and death are, by contrast to his greatness as a craftsman and prince, small things.

That also gives us a pretty interesting place to pick things up in the season. We've kind of built to this place in the first two episodes and then it all falls apart. "Now what?" It gives us a pretty great opportunity to start splitting up the narrative as we focus on everyone's individual answer to that question.
 
I agree that the death of Fëanor comes as a bit of a shock to first-time readers, as you say, because of the buildup. His descent into madness should be quite visible by now, but it will still be a, 'No, wait a minute, he's not really dead....is he?' moment for the audience.

I'm more concerned with how to end Season 3 on a finale note. 'And now the Watchful Peace begins....' is not exactly - dramatic.
 
MithLuin said:
I'm more concerned with how to end Season 3 on a finale note. 'And now the Watchful Peace begins....' is not exactly - dramatic.
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The elves probably don't call it watchful peace until after a while. Morgoth could attack anytime.
 
I put this in the Frame convo as well but here's a shorter version...
I would vote for ending with the ships. I see the story as fundamentally about the Eldar's experience in Valinor, and I would want that to end with Losgar. The inability of the elves to stick together due to jealousy, etc., ends there. The power of fire (Morgoth's domain) gives a powerful symbolism to ending there.

Ending at the darkening seems to imply that we are constructing a story about the fall of Paradise. I want the story to be about the Elves, and I just think many elements of their story more naturally end elsewhere. Losgar has a good dramatic feel to it, and we can end with the other host turning North (or some other dramatic fadeaway)
 
Okay, revisiting this before tomorrow's session:

Season 2 - What is the story for this season? Just...a loss of innocence?
  1. Awakening of the Elves/Meeting Oromë
  2. Ingwë/Finwë/Elwë go to Valinor
  3. The Great Migration of the Elves; the Avari remain in Cuivienen; Tom Bombadil cameo
  4. Elwë meets Melian; Vanyar and Noldor arrive in Valinor; Teleri left behind (Ossë again); introduce Círdan
  5. Split of Sindar/Teleri; Noontide of Valinor; birth of Fëanor, death of Míriel
  6. Feuding House of Finwë I: Marriage of Finwë and Indis; birth of Fingolfin and Finarfin; Courtship of Fëanor and Nerdanel
  7. Feuding House of Finwë II: Creation of the Silmarils; Adult Fingolfin and Finarfin have their own children now, and we meet the (half-)cousins;
  8. Melkor is released from prison
  9. Middle Earth Interlude: Thingol and Melian in Menegroth, Sauron making orcs, elves accidentally hunt petty dwarves (oops!), death of Denethor of the Laiquendi (after Miriel), meet Eol the Dark Elf [probably better to intersperse this with other episodes]
  10. Dwarf Chapter - Let's see what the dwarves are up to in their halls, completely removed from everyone else and not connected to the story (yet)!
  11. Banishment of Fëanor; Melkor's deeds come to light and he flees Valinor
  12. Final set-up of all Valinorean storylines - work in what you can here, because from now on....
  13. Darkening of Valinor

I'm not set on this; there's parts of it I don't like. I'm not sure it's good to have a dwarf episode and a Menegroth episode. I think that's rather...well, disjointed? Like, we're building up a story in Valinor, and then we just ditch our main story for a couple of episodes? But, if we are trying to make our Frame be 'Bilbo gathers stories of the elves from a variety of sources over the years' then the disjointed nature of the story makes sense, and the idea of the elves in Valinor missing the elves in Middle Earth and wondering about them in the interluding 3 episodes is maybe doable. It also would allow for the next generation of elves to grow up - we are going to struggle with time passing in a fairly timeless place, again.
 
ouzaru said:
I think the reasoning behind putting Feanor's death in such a weird place was A) it's an actual genuine surprise, considering how he's been built up. Not exactly Red-Wedding Material, but up there. B) Its odd and awkward placement in the season emphasizes how off the rails Feanor is. It is pretty clown-shoes for him to think he can just storm Utumno as soon as he arrives in Middle Earth, and I would want to spend the first two episodes watching him really push everyone when they're clearly exhausted and unready, and have the assault immediately fail quite horribly. The progression for Feanor in the first couple episodes would really be building impatience to hurry up and do what he came to do, ignoring anything to do with kingdom building or reconnecting with the Moriquendi, and then to have it sputter out in a rush of overconfidence and bitterness... it's less "epic", but that's kind of the point. Feanor's end is pretty ignomonious, unnecessary, and totally of his own making. This is not the passing of a great hero; in much the same way as Melkor and Sauron eventually go out as petty, fairly one-dimensional "darklords", Feanor's fall and death are, by contrast to his greatness as a craftsman and prince, small things.

That also gives us a pretty interesting place to pick things up in the season. We've kind of built to this place in the first two episodes and then it all falls apart. "Now what?" It gives us a pretty great opportunity to start splitting up the narrative as we focus on everyone's individual answer to that question.
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Did you mean a few (2?) episodes into Se3 for Fëanor's death ? I see that very much if so! I had to laugh at the Game Of Thrones reference as I was going use one myself earlier... to say, imagine (spoiler alert) Ned Stark being beheaded Se2 Ep1? Not to say that I think his time code up in Se2 should be come, but rather in lieu of Se3 ep1. It's the only small thing that caught my eye and mention because it could very well sway the current outlines for Se2 and possibly Se3.
 
michael dennis said:
I put this in the Frame convo as well but here's a shorter version...
I would vote for ending with the ships. I see the story as fundamentally about the Eldar's experience in Valinor, and I would want that to end with Losgar. The inability of the elves to stick together due to jealousy, etc., ends there. The power of fire (Morgoth's domain) gives a powerful symbolism to ending there.

Ending at the darkening seems to imply that we are constructing a story about the fall of Paradise. I want the story to be about the Elves, and I just think many elements of their story more naturally end elsewhere. Losgar has a good dramatic feel to it, and we can end with the other host turning North (or some other dramatic fadeaway)
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I agree that the burning of the ships is the ideal dramatic ending. However, it seems the hosts are concerned about covering all the material thoroughly, and there probably just isn't enough time to cover all the events of the Migration and three houses of Eldar (plus keeping track of Melkor, and events in Middle Earth) and get to the ships at the end.
 
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