Session 2.01

Still not sold on the Darkening of Valinor as the end...I think we're running into the problem of "too little butter spread over too much bread." There's a certain amount of dramatic material available and we should work within that constraint. Even with all the work done recently, I still feel (pretty strongly) that season 1 is too long, and should have been only 10-11 episodes to cover the material available (or extended to a different endpoint). While it is true that there is much more conflict hardwired into this season (we can make a big deal out of the various sunderings of the Elves, and the reasons why some didn't take the journey in the first place). But it still feels stretched to me. The feuding in paradise is interesting but it's intensely character-driven whereas Tolkien's stories are generally more plot-driven, and this is a very long time to set up the tension.

I think the Thingol-Melian connection and the Dwarvish material is important, but shouldn't be shunted into separate episodes. These elements should be interspersed among episodes 4-8 (roughly), and the season extended to Losgar.

Separate factor: to what extent are we committed to 100% chronological storytelling? Can some material be told out of order? (The frame certainly makes it possible to do this without confusing the audience.) For example, rather than two whole episodes devoted to the family life of Finwe & Sons, it could be more dramatic to compress this and give the impression that all is well, apart from maybe a dirty look here and there. Have the conflicts suddenly burst into the open at unawares. Some combination of flashback/exposition/dialog would explain the conflicts, and not all at once. Let the reasons be discovered later by investigation, just like they were for the actual characters in Valinor at the time.

I also have a specific request to include a significant scene where Galadriel refuses to give a lock of her hair to Feanor.
 
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Tungol said:
I agree that the burning of the ships is the ideal dramatic ending. However, it seems the hosts are concerned about covering all the material thoroughly, and there probably just isn't enough time to cover all the events of the Migration and three houses of Eldar (plus keeping track of Melkor, and events in Middle Earth) and get to the ships at the end.
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My counter-concern is that we had the same feeling about season 1, and in the end it felt too stretched and we ended up backfilling huge pieces of frame into the first three episodes to keep it interesting. I think here again, there's actually not enough material to fill 13 episodes and keep it consistently gripping. It almost feels like, at every turn, we are always reaching for the most expanded and time-consuming way to tell each and every element of the story, and we could do with some genuine editing here and there. The best creators know what to exclude as well as they know what to include.

For example, in Mithluin's episode 7 - do we really want 60 minutes that's just Feanor in his lab, plus a meet-and-greet of the cousins? The creation of the Silmarils could easily fit into episode 6 (I don't want to spend a lot of time on the mechanics; I want to see little snippets but leave the actual process a total mystery). Meet-the-cousins could fit in later episodes so it doesn't feel like a family reunion. That frees up a whole episode for something more gripping right there. Episode 12 is being help open for us to stick something into that we don't even know about yet. And the 'meanwhile' sections can be told throughout different episodes, or some of it can be told out-of-order in another season. So there's plenty of room to move along with the story.

In the end, it's not that ending at the darkening makes a bad story. I could certainly live with it. But it makes for a very different story. Besides shifting the entire focus of the arc, I think we risk having too many seasons that drag on and on. To me the point is not that paradise is spoiled; the point is that the Elves are not united as they should be, and Losgar drives home that particular evil for me more than the Darkening.
 
Michael, I obviously share your preference for ending with the Burning of the Ships at Losgar, as that's what I originally put forward. I reworked it to end at the Darkening of Valinor as Trish posted the rough draft the Execs are using. (Their rough draft currently has 3 blank episodes in it.) It might seem that ending Season 2 in this way makes this all Melkor's story. But, well...he's off screen for the first half of the season. Allowing him to make his big move here allows the elves to make their countermove in Season 3.

No matter how we structure things, we only get about 9-10 episodes that include Fëanor, arguably the most important character in the Silmarillion. He sets up everything. Knowing this, can we really kill him in the first episode of Season 3? I think that is a valid complaint. The timing just seems...wrong. Of course, killing him off 4 episodes into Season 3 won't be much better, but I think we should have the dramatic build up to his death without cutting off. The death of Smaug at the beginning of the final Hobbit film was terrible; it was like it had no build up rather than 2 movies of build up. And unlike Desolation of Smaug, there really is no way to take Season 2 as far as Fëanor's death.

Ending with the Darkening of Valinor allows us to end before things get *really* dark. The first Season of this show was mostly sunshine and kittens. Yes, a few bad things happened....but nothing you wouldn't tell a 10 year old. Season 2 allows the conflicts to build and dig in deeper, so the audience should be maybe surprised or horrified, but not shocked, when we go from the Oath to the Kinslaying to the Ship burning.

We don't have to lose the 'lack of unity of the elves' theme just because we don't get to the Kinslaying. The party that Manwë orders Fëanor to attend is meant to reconcile the feud - and Fingolfin makes his pledge that turns out to be much more fateful than he thinks before the throne of Manwë just before Melkor and Ungoliant attack. If this reunion is happening just as the Trees start to go dark....well, I think the audience will take the hint.

I am more worried about Season 3 being empty (after the death of Fëanor) if we push forward with the story as far as the burning of the Ships at Losgar. Season 2 should not be empty or boring, and it's not filler or meet-and-greet to introduce what will become our main characters. What I want from the half-cousins is this: the friendship of Maedhros and Fingon as counter to the feud of their fathers Fëanor and Fingolfin; Celegorm hunting with Oromë and befriending Huan; Curufin being married and having Celebrimbor; Turgon being married to Elenwë and having a baby girl (Idril); Galadriel wanting to return and visit Middle Earth; Fëanor asking Galadriel for her hair; Aredhel being friends with Celegorm and Curufin; Nerdanel being ominous about the fate of the twins; Finrod having a Vanya girlfriend.....etc.

That's all canon stuff that Tolkien tells us later as asides when we get to the story where it matters. So we only find out that Aredhel was friends with Celegorm and Curufin in Valinor when she's asking Turgon for permission to leave Gondolin. And we only learn about Huan, Celegorm's talking(?) dog in the tale of Luthien. And we learn about Finrod's girlfriend at the Feast of Reuniting. Shouldn't we see all of this happen in Valinor to set up those later stories? I mean, I wouldn't entirely mind some flashbacks to convey some of that, but we should see it in 'real time' too - Celegorm has to have Huan with him through everything, not just suddenly have a dog in Season 5. The audience should understand why Maedhros is so eager to take the ships back and pick up Fingon, and why Fingon chooses to rescue Maedhros even though he didn't know Maedhros did not intentionally abandon them - we should see them having a friendship in Valinor. Fingon should get his nickname 'the Valiant' for some deed that we need to think up (yes, that's new material, but at the service of the story, not filler).
 
I feel that the darkening, the murder of Finwë, the theft of the Silmarils and the balrogs rescuing Melkor is enough. Adding the kinslaying and burning of the ships is too much.
I want this season to be mainly about the crimes committed against the elves. In season 3, the crimes of the Noldor begin.
 
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This discussion over where to end season two goes back to season 0, as I recall. I imagine we'll make some headway tonight (I'm personally looking forward to the revengance of the Orc question, and the Melkor connection), but if the rest of the series is any indication, we'll still be hashing it out 15 episodes from now.
 
Mithluin -
You bring up a lot of material that should in fact be included. But when you ask:
"Shouldn't we see all of this happen in Valinor to set up those later stories?"

My answer is a (pretty emphatic) no. It's a lot of vignettes that don't directly advance the story at this time. Many of them don't become important until several seasons later. I think it's asking too much of the audience to follow and keep track of these details, hold them in their minds, and immediately understand three or for years later when they actually need to know. We would end up telling a lot of this material a second time. In which case, I advocate for efficiency in this season.

Personally I have no problem envisioning enough material for season 3. The battle under stars, Feanor's intervention, and the fallout is easily three episodes of genuinely gripping television all on its own, and we haven't even brought onthe other host of the Noldor yet. We'll be getting to the point where the story easily and naturally expands to fill the time.
 
Haakon said:
I fell that the darkening, the murder of Finwë, the theft of the Silmarils and the balrogs rescuing Melkor is enough. Adding the kinslaying and burning of the ships is too much.
I want this season to be mainly about the crimes committed against the elves. In season 3, the crimes of the Noldor begin.
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This is making it make more sense to me somehow.
 
  1. News from Formenos and the Oath of Fëanor (Melkor named Morgoth)
  2. Kinslaying at Alqualondë; Doom of Mandos
  3. [Meanwhile, in Middle Earth - First Battle - Orcs attack all the elves of Beleriand - death of Denethor] Finarfin turns back, Fëanor steals the ships, and Fingolfin is abandoned - burning of the ships at Losgar
  4. Morgoth recalls the Orcs from Beleriand to deal with the threat of the Noldor; Death of Fëanor; Fingolfin undertakes the crossing of the Helcaraxë
  5. Imprisonment of Maedhros; death of Elenwë on the Helcaraxë
  6. Creation of the Sun and Moon?
  7. Fingolfin arrives in Middle Earth; Fingon rescues Maedhros
  8. Maedhros awards Fingolfin the High Kingship and removes his brothers to the East
  9. Feast of Reuniting
  10. Dreams of Turgon and Finrod; foundation of Nargothrond and Gondolin
  11. Dagor Aglareb
  12. Siege of Angband begins; we see some tower construction and havens fortifying going on; Completion of Nargothrond and Gondolin. Caranthir meets the Dwarves
  13. Children of Finarfin spill the beans in Doriath (we meet Luthien?); Quenya becomes the language of the kinslayers; First sight of Glaurung
This is easily 20 episodes worth of television. Episodes 3, 4, and 10 in particular could feel very rushed. So would 12 but we're building to climax so that's probably ok. For example I see in episodes 3-4:
a. Return of Melkor, reunion with Sauron, attack begins; Valar lost in thought and Noldor arguing
b. First Battle underway, Death of Denothor, elves pinned back to coast; meanwhile Finarfin turns back
c. Ships are stolen and Fingolfin is abandoned. Debate among the Noldor on both sides.
d. The ships are burned. Fingolfin's host starts walking. Valar still lost in thought. Charge of Feanor.
e. Death of Feanor. Valar start "doing" instead of just "thinking." We see Finarfin in a reduced city and return to the Teleri as well briefly. Death of Elenwe.

There are certianly other ways to divvy it up as well. But I just can't see how there isn't enough material to make a meaningful season. If anything there's FAR FAR too much.
 
michael dennis said:
But I just can't see how there isn't enough material to make a meaningful season. If anything there's FAR FAR too much.
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Do you think we should end with Dagor Aglareb? Of course, some things are never going to fill an episode, like the feast of reuniting.
 
Haakon said:
Do you think we should end with Dagor Aglareb? Of course, some things are never going to fill an episode, like the feast of reuniting.
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Possibly. Although I see the feast as a chance to deal with some of the character issues that we need to flesh out, maybe even bring up some of the material Mithluin's items.
More than that I'm just worried about the shock. The first two seaons are moving at a positively glacial pace, and I don't want to get whiplash from season three moving suddenly so quickly.
 
One way of telling a story with a multitude of characters is by making each episode to be from the point of view of one character. What the project lacks is a core group of characters that will hold together through it all which is what most TV series have. This way characters who appear minor in the first episode will be fleshed out later on and re watching the earlier episode will reveal why they acted certain ways. I don't know if American TV has remade "The Slap" and Australian book and series, seven episodes (in the book chapters) with each episode told by a different character. This will also come to the fore when we tell the stories of Beren and Luthien and Turin.
 
I don't necessarily see what Mithluin has mentioned as mere vignettes. If they are planned properly, there can be a throughline arc that is developed in those moments. We show those bits, using them to show how the characters feel about the main plots. It is characterization, used to create an emotional connection between the characters and the audience. I think we had this discussion last season. What you are calling filler is what is going to make our characters' choices (and deaths) matter to the audience. Otherwise, we should just make a documentary.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
I don't necessarily see what Mithluin has mentioned as mere vignettes. If they are planned properly, there can be a throughline arc that is developed in those moments. We show those bits, using them to show how the characters feel about the main plots. It is characterization, used to create an emotional connection between the characters and the audience. I think we had this discussion last season. What you are calling filler is what is going to make our characters' choices (and deaths) matter to the audience. Otherwise, we should just make a documentary.
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It will matter if it's done well. But it's been presented so far as a way to fill episodes that need material. I would rather these things come in as they organically fit the narrative and the understanding we want the audience to have.

Not saying that it can't be done, just that it will be tricky and I'm encouraging us to plan ahead for it. Too much characterization all at once can kill the flow of an otherwise good story and I'd rather see it spread out more instead of putting it in two solid episodes. I don't see this as a costume drama but that's the risk (not that I don't love a good costume drama - I do - just that this shouldn't be one). I feel this type of information will make more sense to viewers if it's not thrown out there in such a short time frame, only to be recalled several seasons later. Let it unfold as people need to understand. There's ample time to spread it out and almost every item mentioned can be told effectively elsewhere, in aid of moving the plot along a little here.

Listening live it sounds like the hosts agree that the season 3 (as outlined here) actually would have too much material since they want to cut it at the death of Feanor or rescue of Maedhros. Which makes a ton of sense to me.
 
One of the big questions that I tried to push today that is sort of a link to Season 1 was: "Why do the Valar not leave Valinor after the War?" We've painted Valinor in Season 1 as kind of a temporary measure, to help the Valar focus on learning to work together. In the face of the War with Melkor and the arrival of the Children, why do they invite the Children to Valinor at all? As Corey pointed out today, the text is very, very clear that this was a huge mistake, probably the biggest mistake the Valar make in all of history. Why do they do it? We need not be so clear and heavy-handed with our indictment on the show as Tolkien is in the Published Silmarillion, but I don't want to sweep it under the rug and hope the audience doesn't notice? I have some potential angles, but I want to hear with you all have to say first rather than try and steer the convration in any one direction from the get go.

So there it is: why isn't the victory over Melkor and the arrival of the Children and Manwe's vision on the peak of Taniquetil not a clear sign to the Valar that the time has come to expand outward from Valinor and tend to Arda as a whole again? How exactly does this temporary measu settle into the status quo that the Valar never break out of until Judgement Day?
 
Yes... First they leave because they fear their power might damage Middle-earth. I don't think it's all about learning to work together, even if their conflicts were part of the problem. Then they have to go back to stop Melkor and get him out of the way. When they find the Children, they should have kept on that path, since their power and conflicts were dangers to the Children.
But they fall in love with the elves. I think they are blinded by love. That love makes them want to keep the elves close, makes them want to teach them things, see them do things.
 
ouzaru said:
So there it is: why isn't the victory over Melkor and the arrival of the Children and Manwe's vision on the peak of Taniquetil not a clear sign to the Valar that the time has come to expand outward from Valinor and tend to Arda as a whole again? How exactly does this temporary measu settle into the status quo that the Valar never break out of until Judgement Day?
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This is just a supposition, but maybe it has something to do with how the Children are a seperate part of the Music, and their fate is not releaved to the Valar. Melkor wants to dominate the Children, but the rest of the Valar treat them almost like they are a natural product of Eru, that they don't want to overly interfere with them.

Also, Middle Earth has been marred by Melkor, and can't be restored in the way that Valinor was. In a sense, there is nothing the Valar can do to resolve this, but they have created the paradise of Valinor. This is probably one of the reasons that the end up bringing the Children to Valinor (which turns out to be misguided).
 
Yes - Valinor becomes an elf terrarium to the Valar. As the Valar were our main characters all through Season 1, we should see why they make this choice in Season 2. Whose idea is it to invite the elves? When the first three Ambassadors come, why do the rest of the Valar seem to agree? Are there any dissenting voices (Ulmo, Aulë, Mandos, Nienna...?)



I listed those events as individual vignettes, but that is not why I want them in there. The conflict between Fëanor and Fingolfin is going to be central to this season. Their eldest sons are best friends forever. Does no one else think that might be a relevant part of that feud? Maedhros and Fingon are the perfect foils for their fathers' conflict, and characters who can discuss the problems.

Galadriel refuses to give a lock of her hair to Fëanor. Then he goes and makes the Silmarils. Again...this is set up for an important event in this season!

Galadriel wanting to go back to Middle Earth (before the Darkening) shows that the unrest of the Noldor is not wholly bad (it's not all Melkor's fault), and that the bad decision of the Valar is at play.

Nerdanel names her twins 'Fated', and then one of them dies in the Ship burning in Season 3. Nerdanel and Fëanor have a bit of a fight about this, and she decides *not* to follow him (or their sons) to Middle Earth. We have to see why Fëanor's wife (Nerdanel the Wise) stays behind, and also why she is unable to talk Fëanor around to her way of thinking. The rift should show up in their family life, not just their public lives.

Celegorm hunting with Oromë means he has a relationship with one of the Valar, so the Oath is more sundering than if 'the Valar' have no interaction with Fëanor or his Sons. Huan is going to be his companion during the entire fall of the Noldor, and *will* decide to stay with Celegorm despite everything.

Yes, young Celebrimbor being a 'student' of Fëanor is more extra filler vignette; if we left it out, our main story this season would be fine. But slipping it in incidentally in another scene where Fëanor is at work doesn't seem very difficult to me, and it does establish a family relationship for later.
 
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Season 3 now looks like this; Season 4 would begin with the Feast of Reuniting and end with the Dagor Bragollach. Season 3 Frame is teenage Aragorn learning to go out from Rivendell with the Sons of Elrond and Glorfindel.
  1. News from Formenos and the Oath of Fëanor (Melkor named Morgoth)
  2. Kinslaying at Alqualondë;
  3. Doom of Mandos
  4. [Meanwhile, in Middle Earth - First Battle - Orcs attack all the elves of Beleriand - death of Denethor]
  5. Finarfin turns back, Fëanor steals the ships, and Fingolfin is abandoned - burning of the ships at Losgar
  6. Morgoth recalls the Orcs from Beleriand to deal with the threat of the Noldor; Death of Fëanor;
  7. Fingolfin undertakes the crossing of the Helcaraxë
  8. Imprisonment of Maedhros; death of Elenwë on the Helcaraxë
  9. Creation of the Sun and Moon?
  10. Fingolfin arrives in Middle Earth
  11. Fingon rescues Maedhros
  12. Maedhros awards Fingolfin the High Kingship and removes his brothers to the East
  13. ???
I'm pushing this a little further than the hosts suggested; they wanted to end with the rescue of Maedhros. Obviously, this is just a rough outline. The 'Doom of Mandos' will only take about 5 minutes of screentime; Mandos has his say, and Fëanor counters him. But an episode to deal with the aftermath of the battle, for both the Teleri and the Noldor, and for the Valar to react to this....sure, that's plenty of material there.

The Celeborn/Galadriel romance will be a topic of Season 4, now. We seem to be angling for Bilbo as the Frame Character there, so...no worry about them telling their own story, at least!
 
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