Session 2.04

Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
The next session on the 1st of July 2016 will continue with pre-production discussions. This time the focus will be on characters, plot lines and design for locations within season 2. Session 2.03 discussed the breakdown of the elvish races and the migration so the discussion this time should focus on the second half of season 2. Get busy over on the other forums.
 
We can have character discussions here, right?
  1. I'm thinking about Ingwë, we need to do something about him, there's a risk that he becomes two-dimensional. I'm thinking he and the Vanyar are the ones who love the stars most of all the elves. Maybe one of his greatest reasons to go to Valinor is that Varda is there. When the Vanyar move to live at Taniquetil it's the logical end for Ingwë. (Well maybe that isn't three-dimensional but it's a start)
  2. Elwë and Olwë are brothers, but don't seem particularly close. Elwë is closer to Finwë. They seem to be almost like brothers in temperament and interests. Olwë seems to be the third wheel. During the Great Hourney, Elwë leaves to his brother to do the dirty work and lead the Teleri while he hastens ahead to be with Finwë. In Valinor, Finwë asks Ulmo to bring Elwë, and it doesn't seem to be a happy moment for Finwë when the Island ferry returns without Elwë. Maybe, when the Island ferry comes to pick up eöves for the last time, Olwë is fed up with Elwë and that's one of the reasons why he doesn't ask Ossë to wait, and instead gets on the Island and leaves.
  3. Finwë and Miriel could be shown as a tight and synchronised team. This could be a problem or not for Elwë. Perhaps they are a wonderful troika but Elwë secretly mourns the fact that he's single. That would make a nice set up for him meeting Melian.
  4. Olwë and Círdan decide for some reason to make a deal. Círdan stays, while Olwë leaves. Probably, they think that Elwë wants to go west as well, so the plan probably is that Círdan is temporary leader until Elwë shows up and they can leave for Valinor. But Elwë wants to stay when he shows up and the Island ferry is anchored, so Círdan is stuck. Maybe he's made a promise to people. Or maybe he just cares for everyone who might want to go west. Maybe he sort of makes it his business to make that journey possible. But it's not like he knows exactly how to go west, and besides, he isn't the leader, Elwë is, and Elwë wants to stay, so Círdan stays as well.
 
Last edited:
I don't know if this is the right place to post this so feel free to redirect me, but I had some thoughts about Cirdan (I'm a little behind on listening since I don't have a chance to listen live.) During session 2.02 the question was brought up about why would Cirdan choose to stay since he made it that far. I think an interesting plot line for Cirdan would be to make him the first elf that awakens and maybe even be the one that wakes the others. Cirdan becomes the "chief" of the elves and feels a duty to watch over all of them. This is the reason (in my version) why he isn't chosen as an ambassador - somebody has to stay and watch the rest of the elves while the ambassadors go to Valinor. When they arrive at the sea and learn to make ships he realizes his ultimate responsibility: to create a haven and be there to assist all elves in travelling across the sea. His sense of duty towards all elves compels him to stay in Middle-Earth until the very last elf leaves.

I think this has a certain appeal because we know Cirdan is a VIE (very important elf) and this gives a reason why. He appears throughout the Silmarillion, knows about the Istari, is chosen to have a ring of power, and play a role throughout the history of the world. I know Corey has said that Cirdan is right up there with Treebeard and Tom Bombadil as the oldest creatures living during the Third Age. This would give Cirdan an excellent role and we could use him in later frames (or we could even have the starting frame for the season be Arwen leaving the Havens after her mother departs and having a conversation with Cirdan.)
 
I lied, dinner with a friend, gonna be late at best.

Friday night is a tough one, work late and then it's the weekend! Oh well.
 
I think an interesting plot line for Cirdan would be to make him the first elf that awakens and maybe even be the one that wakes the others.
As much as I would love making Círdan a prominent character, I don't think it's possible to make him the first elf to awaken. If it's anybody in our story, I think it would be Ingwë, if I have understood Tolkien correctly. It wouldn't be one of the Teleri anyway, I think.
 
Círdan will not be introduced in the Frame until the 4th season, when we have a hobbit frame trying to figure out these Noldor-Sindar politics.

I do think that the characterization of Círdan as a guardian of his people is correct, but that fits as a lower-ranking Teleri rather than a leader like Elwë. Elwë has the vision (let's go to Valinor!) and Círdan is working to make that happen, to bring everyone along. But by the time they reach the coast...a lot of the Teleri are not there, they've been left behind, and that is what seems to be weighing on Círdan.

I don't think we are going to show the first elf awakening. We might show *an* elf awakening, but there will be other awake elves there. We can show Círdan at Cuivienen, which, considering, makes him pretty darn old later on. Of all the elves we will introduce here in Season 2 Episode 1, who will still be alive at the end of the First Age? Not Elwë, probably not Olwë, not Finwë, not Míriel, not Eöl, not Denethor.... We're basically left with Ingwë, maybe Lenwë... and Círdan. That is how he winds up with the 'oldest' distinction.
 
  1. I'm thinking about Ingwë, we need to do something about him, there's a risk that he becomes two-dimensional. I'm thinking he and the Vanyar are the ones who love the stars most of all the elves. Maybe one of his greatest reasons to go to Valinor is that Varda is there. When the Vanyar move to live at Taniquetil it's the logical end for Ingwë. (Well maybe that isn't three-dimensional but it's a start)

YES. I want to see Ingwë developing a relationship with the Valar during the trip of the Ambassadors. Finwë and Elwë come back from that trip as BFFs, but Ingwë is the one who is most convinced that his people all have to go to Valinor immediately. I would like to see Finwë and Elwë focused on the beauty of the Light of the Trees in their persuasive arguments, whereas Ingwë is all about going to see the Valar.

Varda is a great candidate for 'Vala Ingwë is completely enraptured by'. I would have started with Manwë, but considering how well-loved Varda is by the elves....yes, this fits.
 
We can have character discussions here, right?
4. Olwë and Círdan decide for some reason to make a deal. Círdan stays, while Olwë leaves. Probably, they think that Elwë wants to go west as well, so the plan probably is that Círdan is temporary leader until Elwë shows up and they can leave for Valinor. But Elwë wants to stay when he shows up and the Island ferry is anchored, so Círdan is stuck. Maybe he's made a promise to people. Or maybe he just cares for everyone who might want to go west. Maybe he sort of makes it his business to make that journey possible. But it's not like he knows exactly how to go west, and besides, he isn't the leader, Elwë is, and Elwë wants to stay, so Círdan stays as well.

I want to give Círdan more agency than this. While it is a valid story to have a 'and then things did not go according to plan,' I would rather he choose his fate for a reason, not get it foisted upon him by the decisions of others (Olwë leaving, Elwë staying, Ossë anchoring Tol Eressea, etc).

The decision to stay behind to make a haven so that when all the elves who have decided to stay change their minds and want to go....that is a 'mission' of sorts, not just getting stuck left behind on the shore. Círdan is accounted wise and has foresight. He knows what he is getting himself into. Olwë might not know or understand, but...this shouldn't be a dream deferred/plans derailed situation for Círdan. It should be a conscious choice.

It's also a perfect opportunity for us to introduce the concept of Sea-longing, and that the 'voice' of the water contains an echo of the Music of the Ainur. Círdan can learn how to listen to the Sea, and gain wisdom and insight from the experience.
 
I am kind of enamoured with the concept of the Eglath, and Círdan and his people called themselves 'the Forsaken', a more tragic destiny than choosing to stay.
 
t's also a perfect opportunity for us to introduce the concept of Sea-longing, and that the 'voice' of the water contains an echo of the Music of the Ainur. Círdan can learn how to listen to the Sea, and gain wisdom and insight from the experience.
This will be even more powerful if Círdan is left behind.
 
Hmmm....

As everyone knows, the story of the Silmarillion gets quite bleak. The Túrin season is going to be unmitigated disaster from start to finish.
Season 1 was, in comparison...quite pleasant and hopeful. The good guys win. The bad guys inflict (apparently) no lasting harm. All is more-or-less right with the world.

We need to start transitioning our audience into the acceptance of bad things happening. There is a little of that this season. The death of Míriel should be a shock. Obviously we have some conflict (though that looks to have been mostly resolved by episode 12). And then, in Episode 13, we have Melkor make his move - in one strike, taking out the Trees, the Silmarils, and Finwë.

Season 3 is going to bring more horror - the Oath, the Kinslaying, Fëanor betraying Fingolfin and leaving him behind, death of Elenwë on the Ice, death of Fëanor, capture of Maedhros....

So, yes, some 'bad things' should happen in Season 2, some things that are beyond the characters' control, that they have to deal with. Círdan can gain his wisdom and acceptance/understanding of his role later. I do want him to come to that, though - I want him to know why he is waiting there. But it does not have to be his first impulse.
 
Lenwë should of course represent those elves who are filled with the joy of discovering nature. He could be a bit wild perhaps. When he discovers that some trees actually move he just has to stay. 'Maybe they can talk, too?'
 
[/QUOTE]
I'm thinking he (Inwe) and the Vanyar are the ones who love the stars most of all the elves.
I was actually thinking that the elves who go to Valinor are actually giving up on the stars because there is no full nighttime in Valinor and the stars can no longer be seen unless you are on Tol Eressea or at least east of the Pelori. I feel the Teleri have the love for the stars because they stay in the night of middle earth for thousands of years.
 
Good point. But the fact is, they end up living close to Varda, who kindled the stars, and maybe it's possible to see the stars there high up on Taniquetil. Maybe they're not interested in the stars as points of light but from a metaphysical point of view. Living close to Varda and Manwë will be living close to the greatest sources of wisdom and knowledge of the world there is.
 
Questions for next session (2 weeks from today):

  • How will we depict the Hunter and the elves' fear associated with that? This will set the stage for the Super Secret Necromantic Orc Project.
  • How much 'back in time' do we want to do? Do we include the cataclysmic battle against Melkor? What is the elven perception of this?
  • How much of the Valar do we include in this first episode? (Keeping in mind that the invitation is saved til Episode 2)
  • How do we establish the theme for the Season in this first episode?
  • Frame: What are the conversations introducing Arwen, Celeborn and Galadriel?
 
Yes; apparently Corey Olsen is travelling next week, so he thought it best to get back on track the session after.
 
Back
Top