Session 2.05 for S2E1

Phillip Menzies

Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
So the questions for season 2 episode 1 have been set and let's start the discussion. These will be for session 2.05 due to air on Friday the 22nd of July 2016.

So this episode will take us back to Cuivienen:
• What are we going to do about The Dark Rider? The fear of the Eldar? Kidnapping of Elves?
• How much overlap/recap of last season should we include such as
• The battle from the elvish point of view?
• The elves' awareness of the battle against Melkor?
• Discovery by Oromë?​
• How much are we going to include the Valar or is it going to be an elf centric story?
• What is the central theme of this episode? The center of this first episode?
In the frame:
• What kind of conversations do we want to have with Galadriel, Celeborn and Arwen?
• The Galadriel in the frame right now is before Lord of the Rings; before her final test, so she is not yet the Galadriel at the end of Return of the King.

The bonus question for this thread is, how are we going to portray Galadriel? Is she going to be gung-ho about going to Middle Earth and ruling her own realm, or is she head of the anti-Feanor camp or is she somewhere in the middle?
 
Concerning Galadriel, I think she will have to be passionate about returning to Middle Earth, *and* a character who distrusts Fëanor. When Fëanor makes his rousing speech after the destruction of the Trees (early in Season 3), fully 90% of the Noldor are going to decide to leave with him. All of these people are not out for vengeance to get the guy who killed their king (though many of them are), and even fewer care about recovering the stolen Silmarils (fellow craftsmen and members of Fëanor's camp feel the theft keenly, but the Fingolfin and Finarfin camps...do not care). So, to get the whole bunch to agree to go, he basically has to sell them on 'Return to Middle Earth! There's nothing here for you now!' The Noldor were enamored of the light of the Trees, but with no Trees, welp, peace out! And the younger generation, who have never seen Middle Earth, want to see and explore this new land. The restlessness of the Noldor is something fundamental that Fëanor the demagogue taps into.

Galadriel would be a very convenient spokesman for those who are eager to return to Middle Earth and see those lands for the first time (maybe even rule a realm of their own there)...but who have very little trust in Fëanor.

As for how we portray her mistrust of Fëanor...I'm uncomfortable with the 'creepy uncle' vibe we seem intent on giving Fëanor here. YES, there is something unsettling about his request for her hair. He is viewing her as raw materials for his project, which is a rather dehumanizing way of looking at someone. Considering that, it is akin to lust, as any time you view someone as a object or a means to your own ends you have reduced them, failed to see them as a person (which is more or less what lust is). She has every right to see through him and deny him, denouncing his behavior. But, we really shouldn't have the viewers thinking he wants to lure her down to the basement and touch her inappropriately at the next family get-together, either.


The Beren and Lúthien story is ALL ABOUT whether the characters react to Lúthien with love or lust. She is very beautiful and all around wonderful, so it's no surprise that people want her in their lives. But...those who are possessive about it fall on the lust side, and those who care about her and respect her wishes fall on the love side. And, yes, some of that is overtly sexual (Beren loves her....and would like to marry her and have a kid; Celegorm lusts after her, and locks her up and threatens her with forced marriage). But it's the ENTIRE story, so not every character is viewing her in a sexual way. Thingol falls on the lust side, because of how possessive he is of her and the whole silmaril quest thing. Huan is on the love side, and he's a faithful companion, nothing more. Morgoth is on the lust side, and....well, I'm not sure exactly what he wants to do to her, but I doubt he intends her to survive the experience, so it's more 'torture and total destruction' than 'sex'.


I know that's obvious to everyone, but I just wanted to bring up that 'lust' does not have to translate to 'sexual interest' in our storytelling, and we should be very careful about portraying it that way (ESPECIALLY in the Fëanor and Galadriel relationship).
 
As far as what happens in this episode, I would like to remind people of the 'official' timeline:

1000 Varda begins to make the great constellations
1050 Elves awaken
1085 Oromë meets the Elves
1090 Valar attack Morgoth
1099 Breaking of Utumno
1100 Binding of Melkor
1101 Valar summon the Quendi to Valinor

Note that this is Tolkien's version, not reflecting what we did in Season 1. (Dates are in Years of the Trees and are taken from the Annals of Aman [I think])

The war was the climax of the last season, and seeing it from the elvish point of view will help people figure out the timeline. So, I think we definitely must include it. The question is...what does it look like? Loud distant booms? Smoke seen rising across the water? Do elves flee into the woods or out to the island, or...? When they do meet Oromë (in our version, *after* the battle), that is when they learn what was happening. This meeting should be the highlight of the episode, and thus the themes we want to develop throughout the season should be hit hard there.

So, for Episode One of Season Two:

Start with the Awakening of the Elves under starlight. It's a pretty idyllic peaceful setting, and there is a great sense of wonder on the part of the elves to be alive. One way to handle this is that we don't see the elves from the very *first* moment of their awakening; some elves are already awake, and we maybe see one wake up. This allows for less nudity :p Newly awakened elves can be provided with clothing if necessary, or we can have conveniently placed greenery in the shots. Whatever.

Then the Hunter shows up. Mairon has found the elves, and he's intent on capturing some to bring them back to Melkor. Fear is introduced into our idyllic lakeside setting. We should probably show a scene of elves fleeing a rider, only for it to be Oromë discovering the elves, not the Hunter. (Well, not *that* Hunter; Oromë is the quintessential Hunter!)

*distant battle happens*

Elves meet Oromë - they are initially frightened by him, but he learns to communicate with them and conveys what happened in the battle.
Oromë was assisted in the battle by Yavanna, so she might also meet the elves here? Or be seen to observe from a distance only?

They return to Valinor to deal with Melkor and if we are going to see his trial, it would be here.


The Valar's decision to invite the elves to Valinor is saved for Episode 2.
 
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Elf-characters for the scenes at Cuivienen (Episodes 1-3):

Morwë (Avari) - 1/2 of the 'Noldor' stayed with him at Cuivienen
Nurwë (Avari) - 1/3 of the 'Teleri' stayed with him at Cuivienen
Ingwë (Vanyar) + his wife - all of the Vanyar left Cuivienen
Finwë (Noldor)
Míriel (Noldor)
Mahtan (Noldor)
Elwë/Thingol (Teleri-Sindar)
Olwë (Teleri-Falmari) + his wife
Elmo? (Teleri-???) + his wife (Celeborn's grandparents)
Nowë/Círdan (Teleri-Falathrim)
Lenwë (Teleri-Nandor) + his wife

We can of course invent other characters who are not named in the Legendarium, but these are all named characters who should be available here. We don't know for sure that Mahtan was there, but he's the right generation, so...why not?

Edit: Good catch, Haakon!
 
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Great! Amazing posts!
Círdan is named Nowë initially, of course. He isn't shipwright from the start. That should come later, after meeting Ossë and being left behind and all that.
 
MithLuin said:
Concerning Galadriel, I think she will have to be passionate about returning to Middle Earth, *and* a character who distrusts Fëanor. When Fëanor makes his rousing speech after the destruction of the Trees (early in Season 3), fully 90% of the Noldor are going to decide to leave with him. All of these people are not out for vengeance to get the guy who killed their king (though many of them are), and even fewer care about recovering the stolen Silmarils (fellow craftsmen and members of Fëanor's camp feel the theft keenly, but the Fingolfin and Finarfin camps...do not care). So, to get the whole bunch to agree to go, he basically has to sell them on 'Return to Middle Earth! There's nothing here for you now!' The Noldor were enamored of the light of the Trees, but with no Trees, welp, peace out! And the younger generation, who have never seen Middle Earth, want to see and explore this new land. The restlessness of the Noldor is something fundamental that Fëanor the demagogue taps into.

Galadriel would be a very convenient spokesman for those who are eager to return to Middle Earth and see those lands for the first time (maybe even rule a realm of their own there)...but who have very little trust in Fëanor.

As for how we portray her mistrust of Fëanor...I'm uncomfortable with the 'creepy uncle' vibe we seem intent on giving Fëanor here. YES, there is something unsettling about his request for her hair. He is viewing her as raw materials for his project, which is a rather dehumanizing way of looking at someone. Considering that, it is akin to lust, as any time you view someone as a object or a means to your own ends you have reduced them, failed to see them as a person (which is more or less what lust is). She has every right to see through him and deny him, denouncing his behavior. But, we really shouldn't have the viewers thinking he wants to lure her down to the basement and touch her inappropriately at the next family get-together, either.


The Beren and Lúthien story is ALL ABOUT whether the characters react to Lúthien with love or lust. She is very beautiful and all around wonderful, so it's no surprise that people want her in their lives. But...those who are possessive about it fall on the lust side, and those who care about her and respect her wishes fall on the love side. And, yes, some of that is overtly sexual (Beren loves her....and would like to marry her and have a kid; Celegorm lusts after her, and locks her up and threatens her with forced marriage). But it's the ENTIRE story, so not every character is viewing her in a sexual way. Thingol falls on the lust side, because of how possessive he is of her and the whole silmaril quest thing. Huan is on the love side, and he's a faithful companion, nothing more. Morgoth is on the lust side, and....well, I'm not sure exactly what he wants to do to her, but I doubt he intends her to survive the experience, so it's more 'torture and total destruction' than 'sex'.


I know that's obvious to everyone, but I just wanted to bring up that 'lust' does not have to translate to 'sexual interest' in our storytelling, and we should be very careful about portraying it that way (ESPECIALLY in the Fëanor and Galadriel relationship).
Click to expand...
I was gonna write a whole thing, but I stopped myself. I really have nothing but agreement with all of this, especially the Galadriel as recalcitrant supporter, and all the questions I want to ask you are pretty much "how do we do that effectively on screen" type questions, which I'll save for our first writing roundtable.

Which reminds me, were we gonna do a preliminary one after all?
 
• What are we going to do about The Dark Rider? The fear of the Eldar? Kidnapping of Elves?

This particular issue is one I've been thinking about a bunch. I still have this scene in my head: Melkor standing over the naked, sleeping forms of the elves. I seem to recall that Professor Olsen had said he didn't care for the idea of elves being kidnapped before they awoke, but I guess he needn't kidnap them before they actually wake up. The thing is, though, with respect to the Dark Rider, I'd sort of prefer it if it wasn't an actual thing that the elves had seen with their own eyes, but a figment of their imaginations: a portent of doom that came over them as they were sleeping, an instinctual fear, not unlike humanity's fear of darkness. We don't get a lot of chances to see anything really primordial (or even primal, really) with the elves, and I feel like this is kind of a neat opportunity to give them something like that that makes them a little more relateable. I don't think we really ought to show the actual "kidnapping" of the elves in any great detail, it should be about as clear to us as it is to them; people just don't return from where ever they went, no explanation.

I'd like to take a quick poll: I remember discussing the possibility of some elves never waking up, that their fea had been stripped by Melkor and (good jokes) spirited away. I thought that would be a good, easy way to start the elves off being uneasy; even an elf newly awakened on the shores of Cuivienen is going to be concerned when someone who looks an awful lot like him can't be roused from sleep.

Those are the thoughts I got kicking around with regards to the Dark Rider and the kidnapping and all that. I feel like it's a more... "liberal" reading of the text as it exists, but it sort of explains the mystery a little better and gives us some space to be creative with the presentation. I feel like having a "headless horseman" type actual rider haunting the shores of Cuivienen is a little too goofy.
 
• How much overlap/recap of last season should we include such as
• The battle from the elvish point of view?
• The elves' awareness of the battle against Melkor?
• Discovery by Oromë?
• How much are we going to include the Valar or is it going to be an elf centric story?

I think it'd be a lot of fun to drop the viewer in from the elvish perspective, and allow them to connect the dots on where exactly we are chronologically based on repititions of familiar sights and sounds from the previous season from the elvish perspective. We shouldn't go to the Valinorian viewpoint for any of the story, if possible. It also gives us some space to focus on our new characters, and tease the audience, who have a lot more information than our protagonists, but not the whole story. Delaying the screen presence of the Valar is just going to build anticipation for them, and make the initial meeting a whole lot sweeter, I think.

I need to go back and reread the outline of Episode 13 to see how the final battle was actually handled, as well as the discovery. The ents go to war against Melkor, I seem to recall, and I think maybe that should be their only real source of information about what exactly is going on. It might be kind of neat if the ents just aren't great talkers yet, seeing as how they do everything so slowly, and we're only able to get very general abstractions of "evil, war, danger, stay here".
 
My biggest concern right now is how we introduce the frame. It is going to be a lot more difficult to have a compelling story in this season than in the last. The good news is going to be that we will not require nearly as much frame in this season, as I am pretty certain we will have plenty to do.

The impression that I am getting is that we are showing Arwen wrestling with the whole "#GotoValinor/#DontgotoValinor" thing. My question is how do we introduce that. Do we open up in Lothlorien with a despondent Arwen? Do we take a cue from Season 1 and show the events that are sparking this set of conversations? Or, do we not open up in the frame, but start in the main story?
 
I agree that the Frame is going to be challenging this time. We're in Lothlorien, which is by definition the kind of place where 'nothing much happens.' We are set at the end of the Battle of Five Armies, so the lands are more-or-less peaceful now. We certainly should do something with the Necromancer....but he's the recently-driven-away Necromancer, not the super-threatening-neighbor Necromancer.

I honestly think we'd be better off doing a good bit of the frame in song. We have Galadriel and Arwen; let them sing about whatever we want to focus on. It will be interesting and elvish. Maybe Celeborn has a nice singing voice too. I mean, yes, that could be terrible, but....c'mon....

I think, if we want to maintain the device of having a frame, then the frame must open and close every episode. If we have a two-part episode that ends on a cliffhanger, we can make an exception, though even then, why not show an interruption in the frame to explain the story just breaking off? So, no - open with the frame, not with the main story.

As to how to open, I think we should begin with Arwen already in Lothlorien, and Celeborn approaching her saying that she has been very quiet during this visit, or something. And then the two of them start to talk about what is on her mind (which should be meaning-of-life stuff), and somehow this leads to origins. One of them (probably Arwen) can bring up the 'children's story' of Cuivienen and how the elves awoke, and then we can transition to the actual story.



Obviously, this quiet opening will not make for riveting TV. We have to give it a gorgeous setting, I think, so the viewers can be dazzled by the wonder of Lothlorien. But...I don't think an 'exciting' opening scene is needed for this season. Thoughts?
 
We could open with Arwen leaving Rivendell, saying goodbye to Elrond, and then do a montage of her journeying to Lothlorien. This way, we contrast the two elvish settings against each other and bring the viewers deeper into elven culture. On Arwen's arrival in Lorien, we get an effective way of introducing the important characters of the frame.

I definitely think we should have song in the frame.

In the main story, I would like as little of the Valar as possible. The War and its cataclysmic effects should be experienced as distant but frightening. Sounds of thunder, ground shaking, dark clouds towering on the horizon. I think we should wait with the Ents. Even if they protected the Elves, I don't believe it's necessary to have them close by. I think it would be best to make the Elves as alone as possible and make their discovery of the Ents a big deal during the Great Journey later on.

The Hunter is a problem... We don't want a clear picture of him. Maybe Mairon (who probably doesn't want to be discovered and have his identity revealed) works with sounds and shadows... It's going to be dark as it is already - and a darker cloudy form racing through the trees making sounds of a hellish horse could be terrifying, if done well.
 
The advantage of showing Arwen departing Rivendell is that the frame of the last season will then 'hand the baton' to the frame of this season. The disadvantage is that this event happens before Estel is there, so at least 8-10 years prior to the last frame.

We can do it, but we have to give the audience a time reference to pull it off. Perhaps, in Elrond's farewell to his daughter, he can warn her to be careful, and maybe reference a troubling report he has heard from the Dunedain...mentioning their chieftain. Or perhaps a teenage ARATHORN is visiting Rivendell at the time. Something like that. We can also flash the year up on the screen, but I don't think anyone is going to remember what year Season 1 happened in, unless we were frequently reminding the audience with 'Rivendell, TA xxxx' when we switched back to the frame.

One thing I want to consider is what information we plan to share with the audience when. The frame story is stretched out over 13 episodes in small doses, so it has to build to some reveals and new insights. Here are some details that should come out, and probably not all in the first episode:
  1. Arwen is Elrond's daughter.
  2. Galadriel and Celeborn are Arwen's (maternal) grandparents.
  3. Arwen is several thousand years old (so, an adult). She is unmarried.
  4. Arwen's mother is not around.
  5. Arwen's mother Celebrían was attacked by orcs in the Misty Mountains.
  6. Celebrían did not die in the attack, but chose to depart overseas to Valinor.
  7. Arwen's choice, as the daughter of Elrond Halfelven?
We don't want to drag things out too long; if the audience figures things out long before we 'reveal' them, they'll be bored. But I think there can be an element of mystery in a gradual reveal. We should show the audience that Celebrían is missing before we show WHY. Obviously, Celeborn, Arwen and Galadriel all know what happened to her, so it's not like a secret or anything. But the audience can assume early in the season that she is dead, and only learn later that her being missing is something else. That should make the story more interesting to watch.

Some things should definitely be revealed in the first episode - Arwen's relationship to Celeborn and Galadriel, for instance. And we shouldn't drag on giving the audience other details. Just...not reveal too much up front, either, if there is a more gradual organic way of presenting the pertinent information.

Part of what this season is doing is revealing to the audience that Elrond does in fact share Gilraen's loss and grief in a very personal way. He never mentioned it in Season 1, but when we return to Rivendell in Season 3, we'll KNOW that about him now. It will change how the audience sees his interactions with her. So, including him in this first episode frame may be helpful, even if we won't see him for the rest of the season.
 
We will be introducing the elves at Cuivienen in this first episode as more-or-less a harmonious group, one big happy family. BUT, since episode 3 is the great debate that causes the massive schism in that harmony, we probably want to introduce some of the seeds of differences and disagreement here in this first episode.

To wit, the three different groups should be physically separated from each other. We should have three distinct 'settlements,' each with their own flavor, to show the diversity of the elves. The Vanyar are on the island in the lake. The Noldor and Teleri have settlements on the shore, but in different styles. Maybe some tree-house watchposts exist in the surrounding area.

But more than that, we need to see some leadership that is not in perfect harmony, though not yet in open conflict. There has to be some variety of ideas of what to do about the threats of the Hunter among the elves BEFORE they meet Oromë.

Morwë is Finwë's Avari counterpart among what will become the Noldor. Are they brothers? Are they two distinct family/clans? Is Morwë Míriel's father or brother? We're going to want to develop the dynamic, so we have to think of it first!

Nurwë is the Avari leader of the Teleri (who are the largest group of the elves, and thus the most diverse, sprawling and disunified). What is his connection to Elwë? Are they strangers? Are they kin? Is Nurwë an older elf (like an uncle or something)? Are there missing family members because of the elves who have been stolen by Mairon/Melkor? Do the Teleri have multiple scattered settlements, with each family living in independent homesteads?

How are we going to show the unity of the Vanyar? Are they...creepily similar to each other? Or is their peacefulness based on something other than a common unified worldview? How (other than geographically) are we going to show their separation from the other Elves?

Some things to think about before Friday....
 
The group of elves on the island should consider themselves the first and most important tribe. All of them happen to be blonde, so, although they call themselves the First (Minyar), the other groups (it begins among the Noldor) refer to them as 'the Fair' - Vanyar. Their founders are in legend Imin and Iminyë - but we need to make Ingwë their leader pretty much from the start, so the founding couple should either be killed by the hunter, resulting in the decision to move to the island, or (but I like this less) we simply have Ingwë and don't mention any older elves at all.

If the founding couple have been killed or taken and this is the reason the First live on the island, they could be more or less set to go west from the start. Not that they would talk about it, but they wouldn't have to think much on Oromë's invitation or debate among themselves .
 
I like the idea of making Morwë and Finwë brothers. This could give us a chance to show dynamics similar to the later conflict between Fëanor and Fingolfin.

Alternatively, Morwë is the founder and leader of the Second group and Finwë one generation younger. Making Miriel Morwë's daughter would result in some interesting dynamics as well and put Miriel in a spot where she has to make a decision which will disappoint her father. This would be great in the theme of the season.
 
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Yes I think that Nurwë should be an elf of an older generation, he should be the founder of the Third group. He is the leader. Elwë should be shown as someone who is more progressive, and who interacts more with the Noldor. He is a natural leader, and a positive force. I think it would be interesting to see him 'fall' later, when he is king of Doriath and becomes protective and blinded by his own power.
 
Oh about the Hunter: it's not like he attacks the settlements. He captures straying elves. So the elves living on the shore might argue that the Fair ones on the island are exaggerating the danger.
 
The discovery by Oromë: We see elves gathered, singing songs - and they are singing a song about loved ones who were lost, taken by the Hunter. Apart from the song, the night is pretty quiet. Some elves are just listening to the song, and some listen while engaged in some easier chores. Then suddenly a great neighing is heard. This makes some elves panic and hide or run away. Oromë arrives, walking next to Nahar. We should at some point notice how he changes or has already changed his looks to look more like the Children and less strange to them.
The elves of course react in different ways to this impressive newcomer, with various degrees of awe, wonder and curiosity. The Vanyar should almost immediately leave their island and Ingwë should be among the first to try to interact with the Vala.
 
As I see it:

The Minyar (First) called Vanyar
First generation are dead/abducted.
Second generation: Ingwë (and wife) - leader(s)

The Tatyar (Second) called Noldor
First generation: Morwë (and wife)
Second generation: Míriel, daughter of Morwë. Finwë (who isn't related to Míriel because both have first generation parents).
Mahtan.
Eöl.

The Nelyar (Third), later called Teleri
First generation: Nurwë (and wife).
Second generation: Elwë, Olwë and Elmo, sons of Nurwë.
Lenwë.
Nowë, later called the Shipwright.
Beleg.
Daeron.
Mablung.

We need more women, and names and personalities for the wives. They probably won't get much screen time, but still.

Some of the elves here won't be named in this episode, but I think it would be good to show them. I'm talking mostly about the Teleri, of course. I'd like to see Daeron singing, but we don't have to name him until later. And after Oromë has arrived, maybe he can show Beleg how to make a bow.

Celeborn's father is of course Elmo's son. But I think that we will have to wait with introducing him. Oh, he could be a child in this episode. There has to be some children around.
 
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Listening to the last session, about Finwë. I think he should be a passionate guy, full of heart and love but not very strategic, far from a thinker. We should see the impulsiveness that Fëanor has to a greater degree.
So basically, he makes a lot of bad decisions because his brain is blocked by his heart. He is filled by and trapped in his own tragic melodrama.
He also clearly is a person who has a problem with being alone. He longs for Elwë. He marries Indis - the only second marriage in elven history. He joins Fëanor in exile. Loss seems to have a great negative impact on his judgement.
 
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