Session 2.05 for S2E1

*caught up to speed now*

I hear what he is saying - the constant introduction of characters, some of them as children, is going to feel like we're bombarding the audience. That...should be avoided. But I think there are ways to avoid having him on screen at Cuivienen while still achieving what we want to.

For instance, he can tell Arwen, 'My grandfather (or father's father) was there,' still making it a family story. He can recount what was said and done by the elves at Cuivienen without presenting himself as an eye-witness. That would maintain the appropriate remoteness while still giving us what is a second-hand account - he knew elves who were born in Cuivienen; indeed his own parents or grandparents were (even if he was not born until later). This (unnamed) father or grandfather need not be introduced as a character onscreen; the connection isn't that explicit.

And then Celeborn can enter the primary story about the same time Daeron, Beleg and Mablung do, as one of them, elves 'of the Journey'. He'll fit better there, and still be older than Galadriel. And that way, we can focus on introducing Ingwë, Elwë and Finwë (and Míriel) in these first 2 episodes, with Círdan/Nowë there in the background, and some other characters with roles, but not necessarily names or stories.

But we'll see what the script discussion does with Episode 1 on Saturday!
 
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Concerning Galadriel, I think she will have to be passionate about returning to Middle Earth, *and* a character who distrusts Fëanor. When Fëanor makes his rousing speech after the destruction of the Trees (early in Season 3), fully 90% of the Noldor are going to decide to leave with him. All of these people are not out for vengeance to get the guy who killed their king (though many of them are), and even fewer care about recovering the stolen Silmarils (fellow craftsmen and members of Fëanor's camp feel the theft keenly, but the Fingolfin and Finarfin camps...do not care). So, to get the whole bunch to agree to go, he basically has to sell them on 'Return to Middle Earth! There's nothing here for you now!' The Noldor were enamored of the light of the Trees, but with no Trees, welp, peace out! And the younger generation, who have never seen Middle Earth, want to see and explore this new land. The restlessness of the Noldor is something fundamental that Fëanor the demagogue taps into.

Galadriel would be a very convenient spokesman for those who are eager to return to Middle Earth and see those lands for the first time (maybe even rule a realm of their own there)...but who have very little trust in Fëanor.

As for how we portray her mistrust of Fëanor...I'm uncomfortable with the 'creepy uncle' vibe we seem intent on giving Fëanor here. YES, there is something unsettling about his request for her hair. He is viewing her as raw materials for his project, which is a rather dehumanizing way of looking at someone. Considering that, it is akin to lust, as any time you view someone as a object or a means to your own ends you have reduced them, failed to see them as a person (which is more or less what lust is). She has every right to see through him and deny him, denouncing his behavior. But, we really shouldn't have the viewers thinking he wants to lure her down to the basement and touch her inappropriately at the next family get-together, either.


The Beren and Lúthien story is ALL ABOUT whether the characters react to Lúthien with love or lust. She is very beautiful and all around wonderful, so it's no surprise that people want her in their lives. But...those who are possessive about it fall on the lust side, and those who care about her and respect her wishes fall on the love side. And, yes, some of that is overtly sexual (Beren loves her....and would like to marry her and have a kid; Celegorm lusts after her, and locks her up and threatens her with forced marriage). But it's the ENTIRE story, so not every character is viewing her in a sexual way. Thingol falls on the lust side, because of how possessive he is of her and the whole silmaril quest thing. Huan is on the love side, and he's a faithful companion, nothing more. Morgoth is on the lust side, and....well, I'm not sure exactly what he wants to do to her, but I doubt he intends her to survive the experience, so it's more 'torture and total destruction' than 'sex'.


I know that's obvious to everyone, but I just wanted to bring up that 'lust' does not have to translate to 'sexual interest' in our storytelling, and we should be very careful about portraying it that way (ESPECIALLY in the Fëanor and Galadriel relationship).

Oh, and just to add that the 'creepy incest' vibe does not actually apply in this case. Fëanor and Galadriel are distantly related enough that there would be no impediment to a marriage between them on account of their blood relation. (The fact that Fëanor is happily married before she is born is of course an impediment, but one unrelated to their related-ness.) This is *not* a case of prefiguring Maeglin and Idril (who are straight up first cousins and too closely related to marry by elvish standards.) So, not only is he not into her in that way, but even if he were, it wouldn't be incest :p

This may not be relevant (yet), but *will* matter in the dynamic we choose for the 'friendship' between Aredhel and Celegorm. These half-cousins are both unmarried and value each others' company. FULL BLOODED first cousins are too closely related to marry, but HALF-COUSINS is specifically called out in 'Laws and Customs' as NOT incest. That is a very very interesting distinction to include, as Fëanor and his half-brothers Fingolfin and Finarfin are the only half-siblings in elven history (as remarriage is not a thing). It's like that caveat was written with Aredhel and Celegorm in mind.... That could go in all sorts of directions, but choosing a romantic angle to their friendship adds to the drama between Eöl and Celegorm later. Just something to keep in mind.
 
We seem to have run ourselves into another chronological imbroglio, and once again over the waking of the elves question. Can someone please give me a good reason why we crammed the waking of the elves into the end of season 1. My understanding was that we needed them to wake so that Melkor could do his abduction/enslaving before he was banished. As it turns out he did not do any such thing before being banished and we are leaving it to Sauron to get the ball rolling on the abductions/tortures etc. We now find ourselves in the situation where only a short amount of time has elapsed between the finding by Orome including the war of Powers and the invitation, and yet we are wanting a good build up with the mysterious dark hunter and there to be some generations of elves so that Celeborn is not one of the waking elves making him more wise than Galadriel.

If episode one is to have the right feel, there needs to be a build up of a deep seated fear among the elves about the dark hunter with children elves being warned by their mothers to not stray too far from home because of the boogey man/hunter and the establishment of elvish culture by Cuivienen before it is replaced by Valinorian culture, which means "the passage of time" which we do not have.
 
I don't know to what extent this is a solution or an answer Phillip, but my feeling is that we should make things unclear.
First of all - if we, as Dr Olsen suggested, cut between frame and main story several times during the episode rather than begin and end with the frame, this allows us to imply passing of time by showing differences in how the settlements and people look. We can also use dialogue.
Secondly, since we are using the elven perspective, we don't have to send clear messages to the viewers about what happens with the War and those things. Since the elves were protected from the effects of the War, it might not be noticed at all at Cuivienen.
So, basically, we can make the timing of the awakening a mystery.
 
Unfortunately we have linked a number of things with the elves to the valar events. We know that:
  1. The elves woke with the kindling of the stars (which we saw in ep13)
  2. Orome rushes in saying he has found them awake (final council meeting)
  3. Mairon also reports finding the elves awake (before the War of Powers)
  4. Orome and others go to Cuivienen to protect the elves along with ents and eagles from forces from Uttumno hell bent on exterminating them. This effectively means that Orome has to reveal himself to them only a few "days" after they wake up.
We have chosen this outline rather than them being given ages to live under the stars before Orome stumbles upon them.

I would recommend a rewrite of ep13 (it had way too much in it anyway) but I don't think the hosts would agree to it. I would have it go:
  1. the elves awake with the kindling of the stars
  2. the War of Powers takes place oblivious to the presence of the elves
  3. reinstate the hook that was decided very early on in the outline of season one of the final scene in season one being the elves waking up (a fantastic hook for season two)
I'm still not sold on this chronology either. I would have the elves sleeping through the war of Powers completely, just to get to hook at the end of the episode which would delay the kindling of the stars or at least make the kindling meaningful and have it as a strategic part of the war. (see my post on episode 13 http://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/session-1-15.135/page-4#post-1894 and below)
  • Sentencing on Taniqetil to be bound for an age in the Halls of Mandos. Sentence/pardon given to any captured Maiar who repent. Mention is made of those who escaped their wrath. Nienna weeps for the destruction of Middle Earth and all that has been lost there. Varda says there is one more thing to do. (This delay in the finalisation of the constellation gives us a nice Desolation of Smaug – hidden door moment “WHY ISN’T THE DOOR OPENING?” when our Tolkien fanbase are going “THE STARS ARE LIT SO WHERE ARE THE ELVES?”). She sets the Sickle Valacirca in the North and Manwe pronounces “as a warning to you and any who come after who put their own glory above the protection of the Children of Iluvatar and of Arda.”
  • Melkor looks back with Valacirca over his head, as he is ushered into the Halls of Mandos.
  • Final scene: The elves awake to blazing stars and the Sickle being laid out in the sky. The stars fade slightly and thousands of elves creep out of the trees around the Lake.
I don't want this to sound like a case of sour grapes that my ideas were not selected. My concern is that the current chronology is not working !!!! Our theoretical audience is intelligent and they will tear strips off us with inconsistencies this large.
 
  • The elves woke with the kindling of the stars (which we saw in ep13)
  • Orome rushes in saying he has found them awake (final council meeting)
  • Mairon also reports finding the elves awake (before the War of Powers)
  • Orome and others go to Cuivienen to protect the elves along with ents and eagles from forces from Uttumno hell bent on exterminating them. This effectively means that Orome has to reveal himself to them only a few "days" after they wake up.
We don't show the awakening, so that won't be a problem. We don't show Oromë rushing in this season either. And we don't show Mairon reporting.
I do not believe that the Valar's protection of the Children happen close to Cuivienen. They create a wide protective circle around the place, which retains the feeling of peace at the elven settlement. So that should remain a secret, and we don't have to show that either. And so, there is no reason to force Oromë to reveal himself right after the awakening.
 
Keep in mind that the existence of the elves is pretty much the impetus for the War; I think it is too late to alter that drastically.

We will discuss the episode 1 script tomorrow (7:30 PM EDT, if you are available to chime in), and work out the timing/pacing there.

I think it is possible to give episode 1 the correct feeling with time and still be consistent with what we did in Episode 13. The *easiest* way is to create a delay between Oromë's first meeting with the elves and his 'proper' meeting with them. The first 'meeting' can be him coming out of the woods in majesty and most of the elves fleeing from him in terror. That creates some uncertainty - is this the dread Hunter, or is he a good guy, or...? The elves can discuss amongst themselves.

Meanwhile, War of the Powers, creating more unease and uncertainty in the elvish settlement as they would surely hear/see something of the distant battle (even if protected).

Then, *after* the War, Oromë comes back to meet the elves, and this time, one of them (Ingwë) is brave enough to approach him and have a conversation.
 
Maybe Arwen will be distressed upon being informed that the Tra-La-La-Lally Elves have departed for the West. Maybe her mentor is one of them!
 
I think we will have to face the fact that the Tra-La-La-Lally elves will be the last to leave.
 
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