Session 2.09 for S2E05

Phillip Menzies

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Staff member
Well, we have a lot of work to do before the next session on Friday the 9th of September 2016. Not only the normal session questions but two projects as well. The projects are:
  1. Flesh out the stuff we want to cover in the frame. You can refer to the post in the Frame Narrative thread at http://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/frame-narrative.23/page-11#post-4856 and continue that discussion there.
  2. What scenes do we want to give to the bad guys over the season to flesh out the Mairon to Sauron story arc and the Super Secret Necromantic Orc Project Henceforth to be known as SSNOP? I have started a new thread under "Across the Series/General" for this at http://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/bad-guys-story-arc-for-season-two.311/
There are four questions seeking input for the next session, being:
  1. What do we emphasise about the arrival of the Vanyar and Noldor in Valinor? What themes are we concentrating on in relation to fear/desire/purpose and the "where do elves belong" questions?
  2. How do we depict Cirdan and Osse's relationship? What is their relationship like? Is it paternal? Is it a mentor relationship?
  3. Do we have Elwe emerge from his time capsule before or after Olwe and the rest of the Teleri leave for Valinor or do we leave it for a later episode?
  4. How do we want to connect the Valinor thread to the Teleri thread? How do we want to parallel that with what is going on with the Teleri on the shores of Middle Earth?
 
I think it is very important that Elwë is not reunited with the others until after the departure of the Teleri for Valinor.

It is possible for him and Melian to emerge from their trance and have a scene together at the same time as Olwë and the others are leaving...but it should not be a case of him meeting up with Olwë again and then going their separate ways.
 
I agree with MithLuin's post above, but I want to tackle question #2.

The relationship between Cirdan and Ossë could be an interesting one, but we are going to have to approach the question of whether or not it continues into the following ages. If not, what causes them to "drift" apart. Also, "mentor" does not seem to be a proper term, since nothing we know about Cirdan seems to indicate such an unstable role model. Or does Ossë lose interest in the elves later on?
 
I think that, since we decided on a scene where Olwë and Círdan see the Vanyar and Noldor leave for Valinor on the Ferry Island, it would be best to let Olwë be long gone when Elwë comes back.

In Valinor, one important thing will have to be Finwë asking Ulmo to bring Elwë. It is in fact his impatience that forces the Valar to make the last Ferry tour, and thereby perhaps making Ossë doing the last trip earlier than he otherwise would have, and so making Elwë miss the last chance to leave for the West...
 
I agree with MithLuin's post above, but I want to tackle question #2.

The relationship between Cirdan and Ossë could be an interesting one, but we are going to have to approach the question of whether or not it continues into the following ages. If not, what causes them to "drift" apart. Also, "mentor" does not seem to be a proper term, since nothing we know about Cirdan seems to indicate such an unstable role model. Or does Ossë lose interest in the elves later on?

I'd like to come at it from another angle: Osse is a party animal that settles down after having kids. The elves are his kids, and really change his attitude. He is less smashy and wants to protect his new charges. His nature doesn't change, but he loses the "edge" he had in his youth unless something really riles him up. I don't think he loses interest but certainly after the Ban it seems like the Valar sort of stay away from Middle Earth interfering in Middle Earth directly, we could make that something a little more explicit so we have a good reason to at least see less of Osse.
 
Perhaps, re: Osse and Cirdan, this is where we see the hand of Ulmo stepping in to have backup plans for future events. Ulmo knows, at some point, the Elves of Middle Earth will leave for Valinor. He also knows that the art of shipbuilding will be a crucial component in the eventual defeat of Melko. So, Ulmo approaches Osse and, in atonement for his earlier rebellion, tells him to befriend the Elves that are by the sea and teach them the ways of the sea. And he also tells him to single out the most devout and sea-crafty of them all, for a special destiny. Osse does as he's told and befriends Cirdan before ultimately bringing his name to the Valar to be the instrument of Destiny. So, initially, Osse's relationship with Cirdan is almost like an employer looking for an employee for a special assignment and this eventually morphs into a genuine friendship. And when Osse understands that Cirdan will never see Valinor until the last, that friendship becomes tinged with regret as Osse realizes the terrible price that his actions have enacted upon his friend.
 
Ulmo knows, at some point, the Elves of Middle Earth will leave for Valinor. He also knows that the art of shipbuilding will be a crucial component in the eventual defeat of Melko. So, Ulmo approaches Osse and, in atonement for his earlier rebellion, tells him to befriend the Elves that are by the sea and teach them the ways of the sea.

I like this idea, but I would prefer to emphasize Ulmo working against Melkor, rather than his possible foresight about the Elves leaving Middle Earth. That idea would seem to run counter to the theme of the season: the Elves choice of Middle Earth versus Valinor. There should be plausible arguments on both sides, and having Ulmo be on the pro-Valinor side seems a bit unbalanced.
 
Suggestion for Melian/Elwë plot: have something happen that causes Melian to want to erect her force-field. I suggest that she gets in a fight with some sort of monster (an orc, maybe?) which she easily slays, but the experience leaves her anguished. Melian erects her girdle and nobody can see her, except they feel pain and fear when nearby. Elwë, however, having having seen her before in Valinor, and having been transformed by the light of the Trees, recognizes her. And he is able to overcome the fear and anguish of the threshold in an attempt to comfort her. Then they have some sort of tender moment when time seems to stand still.
 
I must say I'm not fond of the idea that Melian and Elwë meet each other or see one another before Nan Elmoth. It takes away a bunch of the romance.
 
I must say I'm not fond of the idea that Melian and Elwë meet each other or see one another before Nan Elmoth. It takes away a bunch of the romance.

I think you're right. Maybe Elwë should just be uniquely able to see Melian.

Also, I don't think the Silm Film should make any pronouncements on the nature of Tom Bombadil.
 
I must say I'm not fond of the idea that Melian and Elwë meet each other or see one another before Nan Elmoth. It takes away a bunch of the romance.

There are several things that came up in the most recent session that trouble me, and this is one of them. The whole power of the moment is in the "love at first sight" routine. It takes away from the mirroring of Beren and Luthien, and then Aragorn and Arwen.

The other thing that confused me a bit was why the girdle of Melian had to be a "fear" thing explicitly. I don't recall that except in its interaction with the power Sauron is putting out there.

I think it would be a lot more interesting if every time someone walked into the girdle, they would find themselves inexplicably walking in the opposite direction. It reduces the EVIL feel of Nan Elmroth, which means we can dispense with this "He's seen her before" thing...
 
Yes, I agree. Melian could work equally well through confusion. It would be better if her girdle caused confusion and disorientation rather than fear. The madness of the region between Doriath and Morgoth's domain could be caused by the mix of fear and confusion, rather than fear and fear.
 
I don't think we need to mirror every romance in Arda though. The other thing is that we need to think of Melian's intent in her actions. We shouldn't let it be like a kidnapping of Elwë when she meets him.
 
I don't think we need to mirror every romance in Arda though. The other thing is that we need to think of Melian's intent in her actions. We shouldn't let it be like a kidnapping of Elwë when she meets him.

We can show that Melian is not kidnapping Elwë by showing that she is similarly transfixed. I'm aware that not every romance needs to mirror every other one, but this one definitely should. The Silmarillion definitely does this in this case. We did not mirror this with the romance of Tulkas and Nessa, nor with Finwe and Miriel. Nor shall we do so with Turin and Nienor, Tuor and Idril, and so on. Elwë and Melian are supposed to mirror Beren and Luthien. and then Aragorn and Arwen later on.
 
Right - we'll have all sorts of different romantic (and not-so-romantic) stories to work with.

Elwë and Melian are meant to be the original of the love-at-first-sight trope in Middle Earth stories, so should be *very* similar to what we do with the meeting of Beren and Luthien, and later Aragorn and Arwen (which will happen in possibly the same episode, so the connection will be blatant).

But we will also have the meeting of Eol and Aredhel in Nan Elmoth, which is a much creepier one-sided thing. And the meeting of Haleth and Caranthir, where he respects her valor (in spite of himself), but she can't be bothered with him. And the meeting of Andreth and Aegnor, who will become star-crossed lovers who never marry (having more in common with Finwë/Míriel). And the May-December Galadriel and Celeborn story we are working towards ;). And anything with Turin.
 
I would have liked some talk about Finwë missing Elwë. I think it's a pretty important thing. Maybe we can discuss it in the outline process?
 
In the next episode, I'd like to see Finwë finding out that Elwë isn't on the Ferry/Tol Eressëa, and then there's the death of Miriel. This double loss will probably break him to some degree, which could give us some better understanding of why he becomes so bad at speaking out and being a leader.
 
In the next episode, I'd like to see Finwë finding out that Elwë isn't on the Ferry/Tol Eressëa, and then there's the death of Miriel. This double loss will probably break him to some degree, which could give us some better understanding of why he becomes so bad at speaking out and being a leader.

And, perhaps, almost afraid of loosing anyone else? As in, he sides with Feanor so much because he fears loosing the love of his hot-tempered son?
 
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