Session 2.09 for S2E05
- Thread starter Phillip Menzies
- Start date
Matt Duke
New Member
There is some support in Tolkien's later writings ("Last Writings", in fact, from Vol XII The People of Middle-Earth) for Cirdan's remaining in Middle-Earth being a literal and explicit "calling". That little snippet places Cirdan as "the leader of those who sought longest for Elwe when he was lost", so he arrives late to the departure of Olwe and the Teleri on Tol Eressea.
"Then, it is said, he stood forlorn looking out to sea, and it was night, but far away he could see a glimmer of light upon Eressea ere it vanished into the West. Then he cried aloud: 'I will follow that light, alone if none will come with me, for the ship that I have been building is now almost ready.' But even as he said this he received in his heart a message, which he knew to come from the Valar, though in his mind it was remembered as a voice speaking in his own tongue. And the voice warned him not to attempt this peril; for his strength and skill would not be able to build any ship able to dare the winds and waves of the Great Sea for many long years yet. 'Abide now that time, for when it comes then will your work be of utmost worth, and it will be remembered in song for many ages after.' 'I obey,' Cirdan answered, and then it seemed to him that he saw (in a vision maybe) a shape like a white boat, shining above him, that sailed west through the air, and as it dwindled in the distance it looked like a star of so great a brilliance that it cast a shadow of Cirdan upon the strand where he stood."
I don't know if these late writings are very workable for our purposes, or should be considered. This seems to be after Tolkien dismissed the creation myth of the Sun and Moon, for example ("and it was night"; well duh, there's no sun yet!) I like the story as we're working it out, with Cirdan and Olwe together just missing the departure of the Vanyar and Noldor, and I don't think that needs to change. but I do like the idea of Cirdan seeing a hint of Earendil's ship in a dream or vision, and that informing his sense of having received a calling.
"Then, it is said, he stood forlorn looking out to sea, and it was night, but far away he could see a glimmer of light upon Eressea ere it vanished into the West. Then he cried aloud: 'I will follow that light, alone if none will come with me, for the ship that I have been building is now almost ready.' But even as he said this he received in his heart a message, which he knew to come from the Valar, though in his mind it was remembered as a voice speaking in his own tongue. And the voice warned him not to attempt this peril; for his strength and skill would not be able to build any ship able to dare the winds and waves of the Great Sea for many long years yet. 'Abide now that time, for when it comes then will your work be of utmost worth, and it will be remembered in song for many ages after.' 'I obey,' Cirdan answered, and then it seemed to him that he saw (in a vision maybe) a shape like a white boat, shining above him, that sailed west through the air, and as it dwindled in the distance it looked like a star of so great a brilliance that it cast a shadow of Cirdan upon the strand where he stood."
I don't know if these late writings are very workable for our purposes, or should be considered. This seems to be after Tolkien dismissed the creation myth of the Sun and Moon, for example ("and it was night"; well duh, there's no sun yet!) I like the story as we're working it out, with Cirdan and Olwe together just missing the departure of the Vanyar and Noldor, and I don't think that needs to change. but I do like the idea of Cirdan seeing a hint of Earendil's ship in a dream or vision, and that informing his sense of having received a calling.
Ren
Member
Sorry, no offence. The words lingered in my head since the eighties, probably from watching Star Wars too many times, and they saw a chance to come forth and be spelled out, before I could stop them from being posted!
Seriously, I like the idea too and it indeed adds to our understanding of Finwë. And who says it is not the other way round and George Lucas based his ideas on characters of the silmarillion?
Edit:
Silmarillion published in 1977
Star Wars "A New Hope" released in 1977
Star Wars "The Empire Strikes Back" released in 1980
Star Wars "Return of the Jedi" released in 1983
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Marielle
Well-Known Member
No offense taken, no worries! And I hereby declare George Lucas borrowing from Tolkien the gospel truth.
On Matt's catch from The Peoples of Middle Earth, it's an interesting idea, but I think the hosts have set up an interesting story for Cirdan, and I think following the lead of that passage unnecessarily complicates his narrative. I LOVE the idea of him dreaming of Earendil: it seems so terribly appropriate for that essential moment to be foreshadowed early and often.
I like the story the execs have designed for Cirdan. I'm trying to make it fit with my own favourite Cirdan theme - that he is the leader of a group of elves who find themselves left behind and call themselves The Forsaken, the Eglath. I'd like us to keep the idea of the Forsaken because of its tragic power - but we can do that at the same time as we're showing Cirdan deciding to stay because he's found a purpose. He can be torn and sad but knowing he's doing the right thing.
Ray Burns
Active Member
Perhaps we show, initially, that Cirdan is totally depressed and that's when he takes the name the Forsaken for his people. And we imply that he goes to the shore and stares into the West on a regular basis. Then he receives his vision and his purpose and is renewed; but, he realizes that this vision and purpose is his and his alone, and his people are still 'Forsaken'. So he's not only torn and sad by not going to Valinor, he is also torn and sad for his people, who do not share in his purpose.
And here's a question: are the Eglath also under the Ban of the Valar, or can ships sailing from the Falas find their way to the Uttermost West? If they can, then that would accentuate the sadness of Cirdan knowing that his people can go, but he must remain. If they can't, then its a different sadness for Cirdan knowing that his people are trapped in slowly disintegrating situation.
It makes Cirdan a truly tragic leader.
And here's a question: are the Eglath also under the Ban of the Valar, or can ships sailing from the Falas find their way to the Uttermost West? If they can, then that would accentuate the sadness of Cirdan knowing that his people can go, but he must remain. If they can't, then its a different sadness for Cirdan knowing that his people are trapped in slowly disintegrating situation.
It makes Cirdan a truly tragic leader.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Well, there is no evidence I am aware of that the Eglain or Falathrim were barred from travelling to Valinor. It would seem that the elves' individual decisions to stay or to go has a great deal to do with personal loyalties.
We could even have Cirdan express excitement for the journey back in Episode 4, making his remaining in Beleriand all the more poignant.
We could even have Cirdan express excitement for the journey back in Episode 4, making his remaining in Beleriand all the more poignant.
I agree, the Forsaken are allowed to go to Valinor, there just isn't a simple way to do it. The Island Ferry is anchored. Círdan is given his task and purpose but he is also a leader of elves who wanted to go west but were left behind.
Perhaps the full consequences of this doesn't hit Cirdan until Ossë returns from anchoring Tol Eressëa. The Maia returns and when meeting Cirdan by the shore he confesses that he has anchored the Island. Cirdan is upset by this, calling himself and his people The Forsaken. As a way to ease his elven friend's pain, Ossë promises to teach him the art of shipbuilding.
I like this. But as I recall, the execs painted the parting of Olwë and Cirdan as more or less done in agreement, which would mean that they have already been given their purposes through dreams.
Perhaps the full consequences of this doesn't hit Cirdan until Ossë returns from anchoring Tol Eressëa. The Maia returns and when meeting Cirdan by the shore he confesses that he has anchored the Island. Cirdan is upset by this, calling himself and his people The Forsaken. As a way to ease his elven friend's pain, Ossë promises to teach him the art of shipbuilding.
A thought has occurred to me - do we need the audience to know that Melian is not dangerous right away?
It is very, very common to have a fairy tale incident of a protagonist stumbling upon a beautiful woman who is a complete stranger to him. Sometimes, she is good, and it turns into a love story. Sometimes, she is evil, and will put him under some sort of enchantment. Sometimes, it's an illusion, and she's not really a beautiful woman at all. Sometimes, she's a mythic creature and he essentially kidnaps her and brings her home as a wife. Sometimes, she kidnaps him and takes him off to Faerie.
The idea being that EVEN IF she is good, there is a legitimate fear of the unknown there. When reading a story, you don't know which story it is until you get further into it. Think about George MacDonald's Phantastes or Lilith - the man wandering around in Faerie meets people all the time, and figuring out friend/foe is not straightforward. Sometimes the dancing skeletons are friendly. Sometimes the injured beautiful young woman is dangerous. And sometimes.... Well, anyway, you get the idea. When reading those stories, I was not always immediately clear on which characters we met were to be considered...trustworthy. You had to keep reading and wait and see what they would do, and sometimes the protagonist would trust more easily/quickly than the reader.
We need to consider how we will do this scene, since we will be mimicking it later. We'll have Beren meeting Lúthien in this way, but we'll also show Túrin meeting Nienor in a similar situation - stumbling upon her laying naked on Finduilas' grave. Strange beautiful women aren't always....safe.
To continue with the reference to bad George Lucas films....in Ewoks: Battle for Endor, the young girl Cindel is lured away by a woman singing her mother's lullaby. The scene shows up about 15 minutes into this clip (you see the witch at 18:25). Suffer through 4 minutes of this film
So, that's the 'dangerous siren' version of beautiful woman in the woods, and she reveals her true, evil nature and kidnaps the child.
Is there any reason we would want to prevent the audience from going 'Wait, Elwë, don't touch her!' when they see this scene? Knowing that they're beginning a love story and he's fine, just fine, really....diminishes any tension or 'what happens next???' for the audience. The characters on screen are all going to be worried about Elwë's disappearance - should the audience know that he is not actually in any peril?
I am leaning towards making people think she has put a spell on him, and then at the end of the episode, we realize they are BOTH frozen together...and only after they snap out of it in a later episode does the audience learn that they are both in love with each other. It's okay to have some open questions, as you want to encourage the audience to watch the next episode to find out what happens......
I am not a fan of the 'false danger' set ups....where Treebeard takes the hobbits to the 'white wizard' and the audience is meant to think it's Saruman, but, surprise, it's just Gandalf, no trouble. I am not suggesting we make Melian appear to be a dangerous enchantress...I just mean that we can make her an unknown quantity, so the audience maybe takes some time to determine that she's 'safe'.
It is very, very common to have a fairy tale incident of a protagonist stumbling upon a beautiful woman who is a complete stranger to him. Sometimes, she is good, and it turns into a love story. Sometimes, she is evil, and will put him under some sort of enchantment. Sometimes, it's an illusion, and she's not really a beautiful woman at all. Sometimes, she's a mythic creature and he essentially kidnaps her and brings her home as a wife. Sometimes, she kidnaps him and takes him off to Faerie.
The idea being that EVEN IF she is good, there is a legitimate fear of the unknown there. When reading a story, you don't know which story it is until you get further into it. Think about George MacDonald's Phantastes or Lilith - the man wandering around in Faerie meets people all the time, and figuring out friend/foe is not straightforward. Sometimes the dancing skeletons are friendly. Sometimes the injured beautiful young woman is dangerous. And sometimes.... Well, anyway, you get the idea. When reading those stories, I was not always immediately clear on which characters we met were to be considered...trustworthy. You had to keep reading and wait and see what they would do, and sometimes the protagonist would trust more easily/quickly than the reader.
We need to consider how we will do this scene, since we will be mimicking it later. We'll have Beren meeting Lúthien in this way, but we'll also show Túrin meeting Nienor in a similar situation - stumbling upon her laying naked on Finduilas' grave. Strange beautiful women aren't always....safe.
To continue with the reference to bad George Lucas films....in Ewoks: Battle for Endor, the young girl Cindel is lured away by a woman singing her mother's lullaby. The scene shows up about 15 minutes into this clip (you see the witch at 18:25). Suffer through 4 minutes of this film
So, that's the 'dangerous siren' version of beautiful woman in the woods, and she reveals her true, evil nature and kidnaps the child.
Is there any reason we would want to prevent the audience from going 'Wait, Elwë, don't touch her!' when they see this scene? Knowing that they're beginning a love story and he's fine, just fine, really....diminishes any tension or 'what happens next???' for the audience. The characters on screen are all going to be worried about Elwë's disappearance - should the audience know that he is not actually in any peril?
I am leaning towards making people think she has put a spell on him, and then at the end of the episode, we realize they are BOTH frozen together...and only after they snap out of it in a later episode does the audience learn that they are both in love with each other. It's okay to have some open questions, as you want to encourage the audience to watch the next episode to find out what happens......
I am not a fan of the 'false danger' set ups....where Treebeard takes the hobbits to the 'white wizard' and the audience is meant to think it's Saruman, but, surprise, it's just Gandalf, no trouble. I am not suggesting we make Melian appear to be a dangerous enchantress...I just mean that we can make her an unknown quantity, so the audience maybe takes some time to determine that she's 'safe'.
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They are not covered by the Ban, no - that applies to the Noldor. But, they are caught up in it, as the hiding of Valinor is equal opportunity, and their ships would be just as ineffective as any others in piercing the mazes set up by the Valar to cut off Middle Earth from the West. Círdan is, of course, one of the elves trying to send ships into the West during the 1st Age - he and Turgon more or less collaborate on this. Círdan is way more pro-Noldor than any other of the Sindar.
All of those ships are lost and all of the mariners die (or are never heard from again). The exception is Voronwë of Gondolin, who was the sole survivor of the last ship sent by Turgon. It wrecked trying to return to Middle Earth. Eärendil and Vingilot are the first ship to get through to Valinor from Middle Earth...ever. After that, traffic goes both ways...for a time.
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Oh, that definitely is true. Maybe more Joseph Campbell than Tolkien, but Tolkien is in there. I mean 'Endor' means 'Middle Earth' for starters.... And while Tolkien hardly invented the old mentor, Obi-wan owes something to Gandalf, I think.
I've also been considering Melian's motivations for leaving Valinor and going to Middle Earth. We seemed to constantly struggle to find people who are in Ulmos' camp in particular in reference to the last debate about the invitation extended to the elves. I like the idea that even though Melian is not a part of the Valar council she still has an opinion on the matter. She can be in the camp that does not agree with forsaking Middle Earth and then when she hears the news about the elves leaving, this is too much and she decides to set up on her own, a bit like Tom Bombadil and she has the advantage of having her own little built-in protective bubble. She would appear to be the sort of being who flits between Valinor and Middle Earth like Yavanna and Orome and she can do this as there is no actual ban.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
I love the idea, mentioned in the session, of liberally using visions of the future everywhere Tolkien did (and beyond).
I also love the idea of fate occasionally being thwarted (ie. the Olwe/Cirdan Middle Earth/Valinor shuttle service being scuttled by the slaying of Olwe at the Kinslaying that was discussed). OT for this session, but I wanted to type it out while it was in my brain - the one place I've always seen where I perceive fate being thwarted (and sloppily repaired) is in the Elrond/Elros family tree. All of the greatest bloodlines of the latter-days First Age are mingled in the persons of Elrond/Elros except one that was lost - Turin. I recon there was a space reserved by "fate" for a daughter of Turin and Finduilas in that family tree, as spouse to Dior. Everyone else in those last couple of generations is of some note, with the fairly glaring exception of Nimloth. So when Turin is ruined and the offspring never comes, that reserved space becomes vacant, and ends up filled by the next best repacement. (My first reaction to the story, before my fate thwarted revelation, was "Why Dior at all? Why not have Elwing be the daughter of Beren and Luthien directly?")
I also love the idea of fate occasionally being thwarted (ie. the Olwe/Cirdan Middle Earth/Valinor shuttle service being scuttled by the slaying of Olwe at the Kinslaying that was discussed). OT for this session, but I wanted to type it out while it was in my brain - the one place I've always seen where I perceive fate being thwarted (and sloppily repaired) is in the Elrond/Elros family tree. All of the greatest bloodlines of the latter-days First Age are mingled in the persons of Elrond/Elros except one that was lost - Turin. I recon there was a space reserved by "fate" for a daughter of Turin and Finduilas in that family tree, as spouse to Dior. Everyone else in those last couple of generations is of some note, with the fairly glaring exception of Nimloth. So when Turin is ruined and the offspring never comes, that reserved space becomes vacant, and ends up filled by the next best repacement. (My first reaction to the story, before my fate thwarted revelation, was "Why Dior at all? Why not have Elwing be the daughter of Beren and Luthien directly?")
Marielle
Well-Known Member
That... brilliant, actually. I've never really considered that at all, but Dior and Nimloth always seemed a little anti-climatic for me, as well. The idea that Finduilas and Turin ought to have borne the second half of that team... can you imagine? Though I can't see the confrontation between Dior/sons of Feanor going any better with a daughter of Turin in the room