Session 2.10 for S2E06

I think that 'suspicion' of Melian may exist, but will quickly fade as they realize just who Melian is. We have to remember that the only exposure that they have had to Ainu has been Orome. So when they see Melian, who although 'just' a Maiar is still of the Ainu) that should be something that they perceive quickly. So it could be something like "you can't derive supreme executive power from strange women standing in the woods" and then a dawning realization that Melian is far more than she appears.

As for the frame.... I'm beginning to wonder if, at times, we try too hard and wind up putting the cart in front of the horse. The frame should support the real story and not the other way around. It might behoove us to leave the actual work on the frame until after the main story's arc has been structured. Then we go back to the frame and put it into place. I'm just afraid that if we keep addressing the frame as part of each episode, we being to try and get too cute and make too many adjustments to the real story to fit what sounds real good in the frame. Perhaps the way to go next season is to get the season episodes in place, and then go back and create the frame device for each episode.
 
Perhaps a boring argument, but we shouldn't make the suspicious person someone who hasn't anything else to do this season. It will just give us extra work - another elf to introduce, and so on.
 
Haakon said:
Perhaps a boring argument, but we shouldn't make the suspicious person someone who hasn't anything else to do this season. It will just give us extra work - another elf to introduce, and so on.
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Yeah, it would nice to spread the love. There are a lot of characters just hanging out. I know Marielle made a good point about handling Saeros carefully but we have other people. I originally didn't like the idea of Celeborn but Nicholas made a good point about his youth ... so he could be a good candidate without hurting his character.

On another note I have a question. Have you guys discussed the possibility that Thingol's people, while still loyal, have a certain faction that are openly grumbling about his actions? I mean I'm an old married man with two kids BUT I get the love story thing. HOWEVER, it's very hard to believe that a lot of his people, who he effectively abandoned, aren't saying, "... what the hell dude. You were just standing out here in the woods this whole time staring at some hot chick???" I think our audience, especially a modern audience, would want to see at least a reaction. Maybe you guys have already discussed this and worked it out.
 
Yeah the Teleri wouldn't just accept this, would they? But on the other hand, they were going west because Elwë persuaded them to do so. Except for Círdan and a few others, they actually liked being held up.

I'm exaggerating to make a point, of course...
 
Haakon said:
Yeah the Teleri wouldn't just accept this, would they? But on the other hand, they were going west because Elwë persuaded them to do so. Except for Círdan and a few others, they actually liked being held up.

I'm exaggerating to make a point, of course...
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I'll admit the text leads one to believe it didn't take much to get them to stop. However, if I'm not mistaken (and there are some scholars here who give exact dates), Elwe stayed in his "trance" for a couple hundred years - or close to it. I think we should either gloss over that time, a la "Peter Jackson" style, or show SOME type of displeasure over his extended courtship. Perhaps a displeasure with his disappearance leads to many of the elves distrusting Melian at first? Kind of kill two birds with one stone?
 
Elwë has been away for a long time (more than two hundred of our years), but it's not clear how that time is perceived by the elves. They've been on the Journey for a longer time (about 250 years). But let's say they think that is a rather long time.

Of course some will feel that he's been away too long and some can feel disappointed when they hear about the reason for his absence. They will also be happy that he isn't dead. They will identify Melian as someone with power and notice that Elwë is changed, most certainly from being with her. They will probably think she's more similar to Oromë than to the Hunter; they won't fear her but feel awe. They will have mixed feelings. Those who don't like Melian and the way she's changed Elwë will probably leave and not be part of their new realm.
 
Ok, this is just a rough outline of what I "think" we've discussed so far. Of course you guys will hopefully correct it where it's wrong and fill in the voids.

- Two voyages/trips carried out by Ulmo using Tol Eressea.
- Vanyar & Noldor first
- Teleri (those who have taken Olwe as lord)

- Tirion is being built by the Vanyar and the Noldor.
- The Vanyar eventually leave to live beneath Manwe's halls on Taniquetil

- Olwe/Teleri begin work on Alqualonde. The Noldor help in this effort ... I'm not sure about the time line on this. I'll have to check references when I get home.

- Osse teaches ship building to both Cirdan and Olwe.
- Cirdan begins to realize the significance of his decision to stay behind

- Elwe sits in trance for 200+ years while his people are left behind ... they miss the second bus leaving the Hither Lands
- Finally comes out of the woods with Melian to lead his people once again
- A few disgruntled individuals over the whole ordeal ... maybe the suspicion is led by Celeborn (or someone else who needs lines)
- Despite the suspicion Elwe's (now Thingol) people can see has become a great lord and accept him as leader
** side note** He becomes the first elf to ever do a successful dunk from the free throw line ... more grumbling over his distinct height advantage
- Melian, after brief suspicion, is seen in truth for her power and majesty

- Progressive drift between the Vanyar and the Noldor as the Vanyar have migrated out of Tirion

- Finwe, Feanor, Miriel, Indis
- Miriel passes on a greater part of herself (not sure of the mechanics or how you could possibly show this on screen) to Feanor
- Leaves her weary to the point of death
- We show Feanor bonding with his mother - growing closer up until her spirit leaves
- Finwe and Indis' relationship
- It culminates sometime BEFORE Feanor is an adult??? Not sure if this was ever definitively decided upon.

- Frame
- I'm honestly lost on the frame stuff ...

Ok, tear apart, add, delete, edit, etc ...
 
Ok good, I'll compare this to my summary (post #87) later. But it seems good to me.
And I think I'll kick the can on the Indis issue... That'll be the next episode. :)
 
Haakon said:
Ok good, I'll compare this to my summary (post #87) later. But it seems good to me.
And I think I'll kick the can on the Indis issue... That'll be the next episode. :)
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I have been trying to keep up and doing note taking using the outline you did ... very good outline. This one is me mostly "thinking out loud."

With everything else being covered it would be great to push the Indis thing back. I'm trying to get into the swing of things here so I have a dumb question. Do the execs, maybe at the end of the pod cast, give a hard line on what topics have to be covered in the next episode? They might have and I just missed it. Again, sorry if it's one of those "obvious" questions haha.
 
Shawn Mitchell said:
I have been trying to keep up and doing note taking using the outline you did ... very good outline. This one is me mostly "thinking out loud."

With everything else being covered it would be great to push the Indis thing back. I'm trying to get into the swing of things here so I have a dumb question. Do the execs, maybe at the end of the pod cast, give a hard line on what topics have to be covered in the next episode? They might have and I just missed it. Again, sorry if it's one of those "obvious" questions haha.
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No worries. They tell us what to cover and then you can look at Pillip's opening post at the beginning of the thread.
 
Ok, so the hosts only discovered this within the past few days, but we (the Script Elves [not my designation]) separated the journeys of the Noldor and Vanyar. There are several reasons for this, but the biggest is that it gives us a chance to introduce the ferry island in the beginning of the episode, and show very clearly that it can come back for the Teleri.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Ok, so the hosts only discovered this within the past few days, but we (the Script Elves [not my designation]) separated the journeys of the Noldor and Vanyar. There are several reasons for this, but the biggest is that it gives us a chance to introduce the ferry island in the beginning of the episode, and show very clearly that it can come back for the Teleri.
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So Nicholas, it will be three island trips as opposed to two?
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
It also allows us to highlight the differences between what the Vanyar and Noldor _do_ in Valinor.
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Sounds good ... I can see how it helps clarify. It doesn't seem to hurt the "intent" of the story in any way.

Another very quick "newbie" question: I'm normally at work when the live event happens. I read the outline notes as soon as they are available, which are VERY helpful by the way, then listen to the podcast when it's posted. I'm assuming these are the only avenues if one misses the live event? Just checking.

Thanks :)
 
Well, the script discussions take place live on Saturday evenings. We do it biweekly, so the next on will be on... October 8. We will be discussing Episode 6 because we usually run two weeks behind the hosts.

That's where all that video I post comes from.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Well, the script discussions take place live on Saturday evenings. We do it biweekly, so the next on will be on... October 8. We will be discussing Episode 6 because we usually run two weeks behind the hosts.

That's where all that video I post comes from.
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Ok. Yeah, I just subscribed to your channel a couple of days ago ... watching and catching up now.
 
Yeah, it's a *lot* to keep up with. Here's a quick run down of the timeline of events of this Season based on the Annals [note that all of these dates are Tolkien's, and some of the events may have shifted slightly in our version of the story]:

Years of the Trees
1 The Two Trees are created
1000 Varda begins to make the great constellations​
Episode 1
1050 Elves awaken
1085 Oromë meets the Elves
1090 Valar attack Morgoth
1099 Breaking of Utumno
1100 Binding of Melkor​
Episode 2
1101 Valar summon the Quendi to Valinor
1102 Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë brought to Valinor​
Episode 3
1104 Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë return to Cuiviénen
1105 Elves set out on the Great Journey​
Episode 4
1115 Nandor abandon the March
1125 Vanyar and Noldor reach Beleriand
1128 Teleri reach Beleriand
1130 Elwë meets Melian
1132 Vanyar and Noldor leave Middle-earth​
Episode 5
1133 Vanyar and Noldor reach Valinor
1140 Tirion completed. Ingwë leaves Tirion
1150 Olwë and other Teleri leave Middle-earth​
Episode 6
1151 Grounding of Tol Eressëa
1152 Elwë returns to the Sindar
1161 Teleri reach Valinor
1165 The last Vanyar leave Tirion
1169 Birth of Fëanor
1170 Death of Míriel ​
Episode 7
1185 Marriage of Finwë and Indis
1190 Birth of Fingolfin
1200 Birth of Lúthien
1230 Birth of Finarfin
1250 Dwarves enter Beleriand. Fëanor creates a new alphabet for the Elves.
1280 Marriage of Finarfin and Eärwen
1300 Thingol builds Menegroth. Daeron invents the Runes. Birth of Turgon and of Finrod.
1330 Orcs enter Beleriand
1350 Nandor enter Beleriand
1362 Births of Aredhel and of Galadriel​
Episode 8
1400 Melkor released​
Episode 9
1449 Fëanor begins work on the Silmarils
1450 Fëanor completes the Silmarils​
Episode 10
1490 Banishment of Fëanor
1492 Melkor visits Formenos​
Episodes 11-13, Season 3
1495 Darkening of Valinor. Death of Finwë and flight of the Noldor. First Kinslaying.
1496 Doom of Mandos. Finarfin turns back.
1497 Morgoth attacks Beleriand. Fëanor reaches Middle-earth and burns the ships. Death of Fëanor. Capture of Maedhros.
1498 Maedhros sent to Thangorodrim
1500 Rising of the Moon and the Sun. Hiding of Valinor. Fingolfin reaches Middle-earth.

(source: http://www.silmarillionwritersguild.org/reference/references/chronology-of-the-silmarillion.php )​

Keep in mind that a Year of the Trees is about 10 years of the Sun. So, since Míriel's death comes in the 'year' after Fëanor was born, he could be quite young, but was probably not meant to be an infant. He could be a 10 year old child, even. We can of course decide what best fits the story rather than holding to a rigid use of these Timelines...I just consider that a good starting point, and this is my justification for Míriel suffering a lingering post-partum depression rather than an instant death-in-childbirth scenario.
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Another thing that emerges from this timeline is that Finarfin gets married 50 Valian years after his birth, and then they have their first child (Finrod) 20 Valian years later. So, an alternate argument could be made for 1 Valian Year being the equivalent of 1 Year of the Sun in later times as far as growth and development goes. [Elves reach adulthood, ie are old enough to marry, when they are 50 years old.] In that case, Fëanor would be at most a toddler when he loses Míriel. But I still think it would be good *not* to go the death-in-childbirth route. It's a good fake out - there can be concern over her pregnancy and the difficulty of the birth, but when she lives through it, everyone thinks they are in the clear. To then have her fade afterwards from a lingering wasting disease will be less expected, and the 'exhausted mom of a baby' will be believable and relatable to the audience. Also, the link between Míriel and Celebrían will be strong, as Celebrían's story is 'yay, we rescued you!' followed by, 'oh, no healing in Middle Earth.'
 
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