Session 2.11 for S2E07

Phillip Menzies

Phillip Menzies

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Staff member
We have less than a week until the next SilmFilm Session. Sorry for the delay as I am sure much of what is being written in the last session thread will be relevant for this thread. So questions for next Session on Friday the 7th of October 2016 are:
  1. What is going to happen in the frame?
  2. What’s going to happen in the epsiode? Epsidoe 7 will cover:
  • Noontide of Valinor
  • Eldamar and princes of Eldalië
  • We will need to introduce Fingolfin, Finarfin and their kids.
    • Which ones do we need?
  • What do we want to emphasise in the early depiction of Fëanor?
    • He’s gotta grow up, develop his alphabet, his relationships with his brothers and dad, get married, learn craft
  • Miriel-Indis relationship?
  • Finwë-Fëanor relationship?
  • What about the bad guys?
 
  1. What is going to happen in the frame? .... - Let's not be hasty, now...
  2. What’s going to happen in the epsiode?
  • We will need to introduce Fingolfin, Finarfin and their kids.
    • Which ones do we need? - Let's just introduce Fingolfin and Finarfin briefly, and if we're showing their kids, let those be a bunch of kids and let us wait with introducing them properly until the next episode.
  • Miriel-Indis relationship? - I thought Míriel passed away in episode 6?
  • What about the bad guys? - From now on, I'd like to keep the bad guys story to a minimum. It's difficult to motivate following their struggles in the first place, and now that we've left ME it's even more difficult.
So let's focus on Finwë and how he first longs for Míriel's return, the love of Finwë and Indis, their marriage and their family, including the growing tension between Fëanor and his brothers.
 
See, I disagree about the bad guys completely. I want to sit and watch Marion starting to second guess himself, get more and more frustrated with Gothmog, and generally start making really questionable, unethical decisions. I feel like this is actually a super good opportunity to show that for a long time he really is mostly a follower, and his confusion about how best to keep straight on the path he's chosen for himself , and the fact that his "working environment" sucks, starts to make him increasingly unhappy and frustrated. I think if we don't spend at least 10 minutes per episode with the bad guys, we're missing a real chance to make their arcs more interesting and make them a lot less cartoonishly evil.
 
ouzaru said:
See, I disagree about the bad guys completely. I want to sit and watch Marion starting to second guess himself, get more and more frustrated with Gothmog, and generally start making really questionable, unethical decisions. I feel like this is actually a super good opportunity to show that for a long time he really is mostly a follower, and his confusion about how best to keep straight on the path he's chosen for himself , and the fact that his "working environment" sucks, starts to make him increasingly unhappy and frustrated. I think if we don't spend at least 10 minutes per episode with the bad guys, we're missing a real chance to make their arcs more interesting and make them a lot less cartoonishly evil.
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What a good starting point for a discussion!
 
Look, in many ways I sympathize with your view. It's a process I'd like to follow. I'm not saying I'd love to create it, though. The material is thin, if not non existent. We have to make things up. To do that well, we have to give it time in the episode. That means taking time from material that also needs fleshing out, material that is crucial to the story right now.
 
I think as long as we're not altering the characters in fundamental ways, we shouldn't be afraid to make things up. If we're doing plausible character work that plugs into what actually is written about the characters in question, that's good enough for me. Professor Olsen's discussion of "fan fiction" in the last podcast was pretty timely: for ages and ages, writing the next chapter of a given character was done by a different author (poet, scop, what have you). Let's embrace that tradition (that Tolkien himself indulged in) and go for it... within the context of what we have. :)

Edit: to address the time concern- doling it out in 10 minute chunks across the episode, as sort of the C plot, should be fine. There isn't a tone of nuance or progress that's going to get made, Marion is basically stewing in his own juices, so you're going to have a lot of repetition of themes, and only incremental progress with those themes each episode. So each episode is oboe a percentage of Marion's arc, and not a complete arc in itself. Does that make sense?
 
I agree that we can make things up - otherwise, we could't do this project at all. It is a matter of priority. I think '10 minute chunks across the episode' sound like way too much time. I think perhaps a couple of chunks, 2-5 minutes each, would be enough. We've got a lot to cover on the story about Finwë's family.
Then there's the focus on Valinor. We've left Elwë and the Sindar for a while. Why keep following the bad guys in ME?
Also, there's the issue of the frame. Who's tellling the story of the bad guys? Who knows about this? Is it supposed to be guesswork? How do we tie it to the theme?
 
I go back to this idea that was discussed earlier ... the releasing of Melkor, it seems to me, is great way to set this up and it wouldn't take even two minutes of screen time. We show Mairon in whatever setting the execs/screenwriters choose back in middle earth. One of his minions, it honestly doesn't matter which one, simply says, "... our LORD has been released." Show Mairon slowly smile.

Or something to that extent. It doesn't have to be a huge scene but it reminds the audience that Middle Earth is still going to be a very relevant place in the future.
 
While I agree that this is a fascinating idea, I think we have to think it over; I'm not certain at least that it is good for the story if the bad guys have a sixth sense about what happens, even if it concerns Melkor. (I know, I've toyed with similar ideas myself. It's not like I'm allergic to the concept or anything.) What are the consequences? Perhaps it is good if Melkor feels he is alone and without allies when he's been released - in fact, isn't this one of the main reasons he repents so easily? If he'd been allowed to go back to his gang, he'd probably fall into his old ways right away. But then, maybe he thinks they've been taken or killed? Maybe he doesn't know who remains on his side? He is the master of deceit and treason, he might think his former underlings have fled and given up 'their cause'. Isn't this one of the reasons he turns to Ungoliant?
And if Melkor doesn't know what has happened to his gang, could we assume that they can find out that he's been released?
 
I was actually thinking about "insiders" ... something the text has alluded to, although it was many years earlier. In other words someone, unbeknownst to the Valar, living there and still loyal to Melkor. In that way Melkor can still feel "alone" (which is a really good idea), can still seek out Ungoliant and we have a way to remind the audience that there is still a real threat in Middle Earth. EVEN if Melkor, and those in Valinor, are not completely aware of it. Again, I don't think the "insider" has to have a huge character build up ... it's just a very minor cast member who relays a message to Mairon.

Now playing devil's advocate with myself - if there is an insider why wouldn't Melkor know about him/her? Perhaps they simply stay in Middle Earth and DON'T go back to Valinor (after they deliver the message). Maybe in fear of getting caught? Or, an easier route to take would be to just let it go. Don't over explain it. Show the messenger, maybe someone minor who the audience might have noticed, deliver the message and we leave it at that.

Again, I'm just thinking out loud. We've probably already given it to much thought and time so sorry haha.
 
We are moving away from the Middle Earth material beginning in this episode. Thingol and Melian's re-emergence and establishment in Doriath with the acceptance of the Sindar in Episode 6 should be our final 'Elves in Beleriand' scene until next season. Should Sauron and Gothmog also be more-or-less 'where we need them' by the end of episode 6?

Our Bad Guy Arc is about to take an abrupt turn. Melkor's Trial is in Episode 8. We won't see Gothmog again until the *very* end of this season.

Soo....what to do with Episode 7? We should be anticipating the return of Melkor. Sauron does seem the obvious character who is focusing on that, so I think a 'teaser' of him making plans 'for the return of Lord Melkor' would be appropriate - either here, or in Episode 6, but more likely here.

Haakon said:
So let's focus on Finwë and how he first longs for Míriel's return, the love of Finwë and Indis, their marriage and their family, including the growing tension between Fëanor and his brothers.
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I agree that it is WAY too premature to have the children of Fëanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin in Episode 7. I think we will first want to meet the adults of the next generation of Noldor princes in Episode 9. We can have background kids running around in Episode 8 if we need them. I'm not even sure we'll have adult Fingolfin and Finarfin yet in Episode 7!

Missing from this is a discussion of Fëanor and Nerdanel. Does their marriage more-or-less coincide with Finwë marrying Indis? Or do Finwë and Indis get married, Fëanor decides it's time for him to spend more time away from home, and then he meets Nerdanel in his travels around Valinor and his studying with her father Mahtan (the formerly-greatest smith among the Noldor)? This would have Fëanor's marriage to Nerdanel coincide more with the birth of the children of Indis (there are 4 of them to choose from, so...)
 
MithLuin said:
We are moving away from the Middle Earth material beginning in this episode. Thingol and Melian's re-emergence and establishment in Doriath with the acceptance of the Sindar in Episode 6 should be our final 'Elves in Beleriand' scene until next season. Should Sauron and Gothmog also be more-or-less 'where we need them' by the end of episode 6?

Our Bad Guy Arc is about to take an abrupt turn. Melkor's Trial is in Episode 8. We won't see Gothmog again until the *very* end of this season.

Soo....what to do with Episode 7? We should be anticipating the return of Melkor. Sauron does seem the obvious character who is focusing on that, so I think a 'teaser' of him making plans 'for the return of Lord Melkor' would be appropriate - either here, or in Episode 6, but more likely here.



I agree that it is WAY too premature to have the children of Fëanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin in Episode 7. I think we will first want to meet the adults of the next generation of Noldor princes in Episode 9. We can have background kids running around in Episode 8 if we need them. I'm not even sure we'll have adult Fingolfin and Finarfin yet in Episode 7!

Missing from this is a discussion of Fëanor and Nerdanel. Does their marriage more-or-less coincide with Finwë marrying Indis? Or do Finwë and Indis get married, Fëanor decides it's time for him to spend more time away from home, and then he meets Nerdanel in his travels around Valinor and his studying with her father Mahtan (the formerly-greatest smith among the Noldor)? This would have Fëanor's marriage to Nerdanel coincide more with the birth of the children of Indis (there are 4 of them to choose from, so...)
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Perhaps after the wedding to Finwe and Indis, Feanor throws himself obsessively into his work ... becoming a sort of apprentice to Mahtan. This takes him away from home AND it allows him to meet Nerdanel. It would be nice to show a genuine relationship/romance between Feanor and Nerdanel. While they eventually grow apart the text suggests there was, in the beginning, something very real. We won't have a LOT of time to develop that.
 
Also, does he develop his alphabet (I'm guessing we are going to show this) while studying under Mahtan? I'm trying to think of a ways to kill more birds with less stones.

I'd like to add that I'm not insinuating he learned that from Mahtan. It could be a way of showing how skilled he is ... maybe even showing Mahtan being fascinated? Certainly he would be impressed with this prodigy ... at least in regards to skill.
 
Finwe/Indis/Feanor dynamic. This has to be done with what the execs discussed on the last episode. Indis was told by Miriel about the premonitions she had, while pregnant and during the birth, so that "secret" knowledge has to be conveyed on screen. Finwe, does not know about this. So how do we show this dynamic? Does Indis become the tireless "forgiver" of Feanor even with her sons? Does she reach out to Feanor repeatedly?

Finwe/Feanor relationship. I'm obviously oversimplifying here but I've always seen their situation paralleled with Denethor and Boromir. A wise, well intentioned father, that simply has a blindness when it comes to his son. This is further perpetuated with Indis (b/c of her knowledge from Miriel) always forgiving Feanor. This compounds the problems the sons already have?
 
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MithLuin said:
establishment in Doriath with the
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We won't have the establishment of Doriath until season 3, actually. Initially they rule from the forest of Neldoreth, which later is part of Doriath but is 'ungirdled'. Lútien is born there. It isn't until the Dwarves appear that Melian counsels Thingol to make the kingly dwelling of Menegroth, and after that the orcs and werewolves dare to enter Beleriand, which leads to Thingol asking the dwarves to make weapons - and it's not until after the return of Melkor and the first battle in the Wars of Beleriand that Melian creates the Girdle, which changes the name of their land from Eglador to Doriath.
 
MithLuin said:
Does their marriage more-or-less coincide with Finwë marrying Indis? Or do Finwë and Indis get married, Fëanor decides it's time for him to spend more time away from home, and then he meets Nerdanel in his travels around Valinor and his studying with her father Mahtan (the formerly-greatest smith among the Noldor)? This would have Fëanor's marriage to Nerdanel coincide more with the birth of the children of Indis (there are 4 of them to choose from, so...)
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Yes! Perhaps Fëanor has learned a lot from his father, but when Finwë starts to spend time with Indis, Fëanor backs away, shifts over and asks Mahtan, who at the time is the greatest of the smiths, to teach him all that he knows. He practically moves in with Mahtan's family, and becomes close to Nerdanel.
 
I really think this is more or less the last episode we have in which it is possible to show bad guy stuff in Middle-earth this season (before the Balrogs save Melkor). In season 3, we will see werewoloves and proto-orcs entering Beleriand, which is supposed to happen during the second age of Melkor's imprisonment. And since we're about to release him, we will have to wait until the next season before we can go on. There are simply no events between where we are now and the events we're going for in season 3.

EDIT: Well...I guess we can do some overlapping.
 
Would the inclusion of the "Bad Guys Arch" feel less forced/more connected to the story if we thematically tie it in with the Valinor drama? We could have a visual connection or two: a frustrated Feanor going to the forge, followed by an enraged Mairon creating a werewolf, perhaps? But if we can find a common theme, I think hopping over to M.E. will feel less like breaking the story.
 
I think so, but we still have the problem that we begin season 3 with events that take place at a time when Melkor is still imprisoned (at the same time as season 2, episode 7).
 
I understand, and practically speaking I get dropping it, but the execs came up with a brilliant arch for Mairon, and I'm loathe to give it up, even if only temporarily.

On the other hand, we're going to have Mairon around for a heck of a lot longer than Finwe or Feanor, so if someone's character development has to get short-changed this episode, it has to be him.
 
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