Session 2.11 for S2E07

She could be. But is there any major battle where main characters don't get offed? I'm leaning towards Kinslaying because there isn't a named Noldo that perishes there. Character deaths should be impactful, either to the story or to the theme: deaths on both sides at Aqualonde fits the themes of betrayal, loss, and sundering, and illustrates the consequences of of Feanor's actions.
 
An alternative could be that she joins Maglor in exile but distances herself from him and the oath, perhaps joins Turgon's people.
 
An alternative could be that she joins Maglor in exile but distances herself from him and the oath, perhaps joins Turgon's people.
Could be... what would the impact on him be if that's the path we take with her? And what character should we give her in season 2 to set that up?
 
Not sure but Turgon swears the oath and changes his heart. Perhaps she and Turgon's wife are friends.
Edit: Oh. Turgon didn't swear the oath. Got carried away.
 
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Any way we could just leave her out altogether?? I hate to keep beating this horse but we have soooo many characters. It works GREAT for a book ... on screen? If you completely streamlined JUST the major characters you'd most likely still lose most of the audience. I LOVE the depth and story lines you guys are coming up with ... but I'm a Tolkien nerd - the audience will want to be able to keep up. Just two more cents.
 
Yes - we certainly don't have to include Maglor's wife in the story. Tolkien never did - we have no name or story for her, just a note that Maglor was married. I listed him as one of the 'married' elves to give us an option to use her in the story if we want to, not to force us to include her. Having Maglor be perpetually unmarried (like Maedhros and Celegorm) is fine. I am fine with leaving out extraneous characters. I am less fine with cutting all of the Noldor women out of the story because they are not important.

To be clear, the ONLY characters who swear the Oath are Fëanor and his 7 sons. The rest of the Noldor do *not* join in on that. The entire party of Fëanoreans and followers of Fingolfin are lumped together into the Doom of Mandos (as well as any followers of Finarfin who don't turn back - ie, all of his kids). Curufin and Maglor may have wives standing right there (so might the twins), but they aren't mentioned in the people who take the Oath. We should keep that in mind as well.
 
I am fine with leaving out extraneous characters. I am less fine with cutting all of the Noldor women out of the story because they are not important.

That's why I've been brainstorming things for Eawen and (possibly) Maglor's wife to do. As much as I love Tolkien, his works are a bit of a sausage-fest (completely understandable, given the context in which he was writing). If this were one of dozens of female characters, I'd cut her right away. But right now the only pro-departure female Noldo is Galadriel, and man is that going to be a complicated reason. I like the idea of giving the position of hot-head only-concerned-about-kicking-Morgoth's-arse to a female, since that's normally a guy's role, and Maglor's wife is a possible candidate. It could also be given to the daughter of Finwe who leaves --

just thought of that as I typed, and, actually, I think that works better. A child furious at the loss of her parent would be an understandable rage machine.
 
Could we give everything we discussed above to Irime? Either killing her at Aqualonde or at the burning of the ships? That would make having Olwe or Earwen kill her especially awkward... I know canonically she crosses the Helcaraxe with Fingolfin, but story-wise, does she contribute anything that makes it necessary she arrive in Middle Earth?
 
Well his world is definitely MALE centric ... regardless of how strong he makes the females it's just one of those issues we'll have to deal with. I think for right now, the upcoming episode, we are supposed to "introduce" the 3rd generation. There was a suggestion made to focus on Maedhros and Fingon ... could we add a focus on one of the female characters as well? Again, it's a question of total screen time available ... at least for the upcoming episode.

Another thing we should start to really clarify, especially for this episode, is/are the details of the Trial. The trial will be the main theme and should be a "big deal."
 
The Trial... is going to be tricky. I don't think "Law and Order: Valinor" is the feel we're going for.

How are we going to explain why the trial even comes up? I know, he's imprisoned for three ages, but we'll likely have an audience that thinks Melkor deserves "life in prison", as it were. What is the Valar's motivation for allowing him to re-present his case?

What are the arguments going to be to release him? To keep him locked up? I think we should have both good and bad reasons on this side.

Tulkas, for example, could be for keeping him locked up, not because of justice or any higher principle, but because he's still angry at Melkor. Ulmo could argue as well for keeping him confined, but because he worries about the danger he still poses.

Do we see Manwe completely agreeing to Nienna's point, or qualifying it? I think Corey's called his remaining in Valinor afterwards a sort of parole, so it could be that they give him his freedom, but only up to a point, and he's supposed to remain under their careful watch. Then we could have others, such as Yavanna, agreeing to release him, to give him the benefit of the doubt, so long as they can keep an eye on him.
 
Well his world is definitely MALE centric ... regardless of how strong he makes the females it's just one of those issues we'll have to deal with. I think for right now, the upcoming episode, we are supposed to "introduce" the 3rd generation. There was a suggestion made to focus on Maedhros and Fingon ... could we add a focus on one of the female characters as well? Again, it's a question of total screen time available ... at least for the upcoming episode.

Another thing we should start to really clarify, especially for this episode, is/are the details of the Trial. The trial will be the main theme and should be a "big deal."

No, we cannot introduce the female cousins of the 3rd generation yet. That is Aredhel and Galadriel, and they are the *youngest* of Finwë's grandchildren.

We can introduce Galadriel in the next episode - when her hair is relevant to making the silmarils. And we know that Aredhel is friends with Celegorm and Curufin, so we can introduce her shortly as well (just not yet!)
 
That's why I've been brainstorming things for Eawen and (possibly) Maglor's wife to do. As much as I love Tolkien, his works are a bit of a sausage-fest (completely understandable, given the context in which he was writing). If this were one of dozens of female characters, I'd cut her right away. But right now the only pro-departure female Noldo is Galadriel, and man is that going to be a complicated reason. I like the idea of giving the position of hot-head only-concerned-about-kicking-Morgoth's-arse to a female, since that's normally a guy's role, and Maglor's wife is a possible candidate. It could also be given to the daughter of Finwe who leaves --

just thought of that as I typed, and, actually, I think that works better. A child furious at the loss of her parent would be an understandable rage machine.

That is an interesting idea, and I would be willing to consider having Irime die at Alqualondë. She is not important later (we know nothing of what she does in Middle Earth), so it's not a huge loss. And it gives Fingolfin a consequence for joining in the Kinslaying.
 
we talk about the consequences of things a lot, don't we? We're like Oprah: "you get a consequence! and you get a consequence! everyone gets a consequence!"

... sorry, I'm channeling a bit of my punchy Trish today. I've been covering the desk/phones all day at work, and I'm getting antsy.
 
More seriously, I think I'd rather cut Maglor's wife entirely and give the possible death at Aqualonde to Irime, and moving the reaction storyline to Fingolfin.

Would we introduce her and Findis, then, in this episode? How would we shorthand define them (shorthand, because we're rather strapped for time, as Shawn has repeatedly reminded us). Maybe have Irime join in Feanor's sword practice sessions? I think we could believably have Feanor's relationships with his sisters be less strained than his brothers, as he'd be less likely to see them as a threat to his position.

I have a headcanon that Findis is a student of Vaire. Since she never speaks in the text, but is a Noldo and therefore presumably a maker, I like her as a weaver.
 
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About Nerdanel/Anaire/Earwen all remaining in Tirion... that is what the text says, and I'm wincing even typing this, but if it makes a better story, we can change that. I'm not saying we should, but if we have Earwen at Aqualonde, Finarfin seeing her mourning when he arrives could help visually portray the mental anguish he's going through. It's a change that would have to be thought through, but I could see it working well onscreen.

I think that showing Earwen grieving the death of Olwë will be important. It might be a little tricky to pull off in a limited amount of screentime, but showing Nerdanel refuse to join Fëanor is probably the 'big deal' Valinor-war-widow. So they get a farewell scene. We could show Anairë and Earwen standing together and refusing to join Fingolfin and Finarfin in a silent scene that is a bit of the 'Noldor leave Tirion' montage. Then, in the aftermath of the Kinslaying, some of the elves come down from Tirion to Alqualondë and just stare in horror at what was done, and that's when we see Earwen grieving for her father and Finarfin being stricken with second thoughts about following his half-brother any further. In other words, we can include this detail without having Earwen originally decide to join in the rebellion. If we want a fuller story, she could go from Tirion to Alqualondë to warn Olwë of the Noldor's rebellion, only to be on hand when Fëanor arrives and her father is killed.

It's 'important' because we have to remind the audience that Olwë was family to the House of Finwë. His daughter is Fëanor's (half-)sister-in-law. The easiest and most poignant way to show that family connection is to show her grief at his death. It is not for nothing that this is called a 'kinslaying'. Yes, on one level, that just means 'elves killing elves'. But they are actually kin, too.

I realize I can get carried away with wanting all the details of the story in an adaptation. We don't need everything that Tolkien ever wrote to tell the story of the fall of the Noldor well. But at least considering the different aspects and then dismissing the parts that don't help us seems like a better idea than leaving them out without consideration.


More seriously, I think I'd rather cut Maglor's wife entirely and give the possible death at Aqualonde to Irime, and moving the reaction storyline to Fingolfin.

Would we introduce her and Findis, then, in this episode? How would we shorthand define them (shorthand, because we're rather strapped for time, and Shawn has repeatedly reminded us). Maybe have Irime join in Feanor's sword practice sessions? I think we could believably have Feanor's relationships with his sisters be less strained than his brothers, as he'd be less likely to see them as a threat to his position.

I have a headcanon that Findis is a student of Vaire. Since she never speaks in the text, but is a Noldo and therefore presumably a maker, I like her as a weaver.

I think that making Fëanor's half-sister Írimë a hot-blooded supporter, backing up everything Fingolfin and Fingon are saying with a 'yeah - let's avenge dad's death!' streak will help to show that Fëanor is not alone in his grief turning to anger and a desire for vengeance. If that over-developed sense of vengeance gets her into trouble when they steal the ships....well then, that's some quick karma and explains why she's not really in the story. It also might explain why the host of Fingolfin, coming up to find the battle already in progress, so quickly join in on the Kinslaying. If Fingolfin's sister is killed as soon as she arrives....well, I would think that would be an opportunity for some rash actions all around. We can work with that.

We would have to introduce child-Írimë in the same episode with young Fingolfin and Finarfin (ie, last episode), but I think her role in this episode and moving forward would be to take Fingolfin's side in all of the Fingolfin-vs-Fëanor feuding. She would be a supporting character who shows up in a few scenes. Which might make it all the more surprising that she's as hot-blooded as Fëanor (albeit less crazy) when the decision to go to Middle Earth comes up.

Keep in mind that Fëanor's sword-training is something he will want to keep a secret from his half-siblings, and that will be in later episodes.
 
I think that showing Earwen grieving the death of Olwë will be important. It might be a little tricky to pull off in a limited amount of screentime, but showing Nerdanel refuse to join Fëanor is probably the 'big deal' Valinor-war-widow. So they get a farewell scene. We could show Anairë and Earwen standing together and refusing to join Fingolfin and Finarfin in a silent scene that is a bit of the 'Noldor leave Tirion' montage. Then, in the aftermath of the Kinslaying, some of the elves come down from Tirion to Alqualondë and just stare in horror at what was done, and that's when we see Earwen grieving for her father and Finarfin being stricken with second thoughts about following his half-brother any further. In other words, we can include this detail without having Earwen originally decide to join in the rebellion. If we want a fuller story, she could go from Tirion to Alqualondë to warn Olwë of the Noldor's rebellion, only to be on hand when Fëanor arrives and her father is killed.

It's 'important' because we have to remind the audience that Olwë was family to the House of Finwë. His daughter is Fëanor's (half-)sister-in-law. The easiest and most poignant way to show that family connection is to show her grief at his death. It is not for nothing that this is called a 'kinslaying'. Yes, on one level, that just means 'elves killing elves'. But they are actually kin, too.

I realize I can get carried away with wanting all the details of the story in an adaptation. We don't need everything that Tolkien ever wrote to tell the story of the fall of the Noldor well. But at least considering the different aspects and then dismissing the parts that don't help us seems like a better idea than leaving them out without consideration.




I think that making Fëanor's half-sister Írimë a hot-blooded supporter, backing up everything Fingolfin and Fingon are saying with a 'yeah - let's avenge dad's death!' streak will help to show that Fëanor is not alone in his grief turning to anger and a desire for vengeance. If that over-developed sense of vengeance gets her into trouble when they steal the ships....well then, that's some quick karma and explains why she's not really in the story. It also might explain why the host of Fingolfin, coming up to find the battle already in progress, so quickly join in on the Kinslaying. If Fingolfin's sister is killed as soon as she arrives....well, I would think that would be an opportunity for some rash actions all around. We can work with that.

We would have to introduce child-Írimë in the same episode with young Fingolfin and Finarfin (ie, last episode), but I think her role in this episode and moving forward would be to take Fingolfin's side in all of the Fingolfin-vs-Fëanor feuding. She would be a supporting character who shows up in a few scenes. Which might make it all the more surprising that she's as hot-blooded as Fëanor (albeit less crazy) when the decision to go to Middle Earth comes up.

Keep in mind that Fëanor's sword-training is something he will want to keep a secret from his half-siblings, and that will be in later episodes.


MithLuin, I like the fact that you bring in all the details ... NOT just the Silmarillion proper. However, does anyone have a direct line to the execs? Seems like there are times when a lot of details are worked out on something that is shot down in two seconds during the actual live episode. In other words maybe just a quick check in from the script elves? " ... hey execs do you want to add in some of the spouses who aren't fleshed out in the Silmarillion?" "... SURE, that would be great!" or they might say, "... no, better keep the characters down for this portion." Just saying, we may be able to better aim our "hammering out the details" if we could get occasional clarification.

Now concerning the trial ... what is they this going to look like on screen? Will this be in front of the throne of Manwe? Will there be Valar on both sides ... some making cases not to release him and others for AT LEAST a parole? Is there seating for the elves? Do they all attend? Is it a spectacle of sorts? I'm obviously a simpleton and I'm having trouble really envisioning what this scene would look like. Would the Valar allow Melkors trial to become a "sideshow" in a way ... I mean if there are dozens and dozens of elves sitting there watching wouldn't it LOOK like a carnival scene? If it's a small gathering then who? Just the "High Kings" among the elves ... maybe along with a select few?
 
MithLuin, I like the fact that you bring in all the details ... NOT just the Silmarillion proper.
That is what we pay her the big nickels for.

However, does anyone have a direct line to the execs? Seems like there are times when a lot of details are worked out on something that is shot down in two seconds during the actual live episode. In other words maybe just a quick check in from the script elves? " ... hey execs do you want to add in some of the spouses who aren't fleshed out in the Silmarillion?" "... SURE, that would be great!" or they might say, "... no, better keep the characters down for this portion." Just saying, we may be able to better aim our "hammering out the details" if we could get occasional clarification.
This falls specifically under Phillip Menzies' purview, as he has been selected as the liaison between the discussion boards and the execs. It is a side effect of the format that this project is taking, but one that does, to a degree, mimic real life, where you would only see executive producers in meetings after a bunch of work has been done, and they get pitched from all departments. I do occasionally communicate with the hosts, but that typically has to do with either scheduling or with sending them finished outlines. I'm not willing to step on Phillip's toes as he was specifically selected by them.
 
Now concerning the trial ... what is they this going to look like on screen? Will this be in front of the throne of Manwe? Will there be Valar on both sides ... some making cases not to release him and others for AT LEAST a parole? Is there seating for the elves? Do they all attend? Is it a spectacle of sorts? I'm obviously a simpleton and I'm having trouble really envisioning what this scene would look like. Would the Valar allow Melkors trial to become a "sideshow" in a way ... I mean if there are dozens and dozens of elves sitting there watching wouldn't it LOOK like a carnival scene? If it's a small gathering then who? Just the "High Kings" among the elves ... maybe along with a select few?


Ok, I think we will have a lot of fun with this. Visually, the scene should, I think, be set in the Ring of Doom. Metaphorically speaking, yes, we should have conflict among the Valar for this. It won't be very interesting to watch if there isn't.

I'm thinking that initially, Manwe might allow the elves to attend in the wings (What could possibly go wrong?). By the time we get to the judgement, he might start to see that their presence is more of a distraction than anything else. Just thinking in text.
 
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