Session 2.11 for S2E07

[Shawn Mitchell]

That is what we pay her the big nickels for.


This falls specifically under Phillip Menzies' purview, as he has been selected as the liaison between the discussion boards and the execs. It is a side effect of the format that this project is taking, but one that does, to a degree, mimic real life, where you would only see executive producers in meetings after a bunch of work has been done, and they get pitched from all departments. I do occasionally communicate with the hosts, but that typically has to do with either scheduling or with sending them finished outlines. I'm not willing to step on Phillip's toes as he was specifically selected by them.

No, no I'm not suggesting stepping on anyone's toes! haha. Not trying to cause trouble ... just asking and learning how things flow. Thanks for the reply!

 

[Shawn Mitchell]

Ok, I think we will have a lot of fun with this. Visually, the scene should, I think, be set in the Ring of Doom. Metaphorically speaking, yes, we should have conflict among the Valar for this. It won't be very interesting to watch if there isn't.

I'm thinking that initially, Manwe might allow the elves to attend in the wings (What could possibly go wrong?). By the time we get to the judgement, he might start to see that their presence is more of a distraction than anything else. Just thinking in text.

Yeah, I think the whole thing could maybe start out slowly, and very civilly. Melkor could REALLY be laying it on thick and exerting that "Saruman" type effect. Then Tulkas (or someone) seeing what he was doing could start losing their patience? Maybe we start to get some ooohhhs and aaahhhs from the elves and that leads to the realization that having them there wasn't such a good idea? By that time it would be a little late.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I thought Olwe is still alive by the end of The Silmarillion.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I thought Olwe is still alive by the end of The Silmarillion.

Yes. And he still will be.

 

[Marielle]

I thought Olwe is still alive by the end of The Silmarillion.

Olwe has no story in the Silmarillion after arriving in Valinor. To give him a story, the execs gave into the script team's bloodlust and killed him at Aqualonde . But, of course, death isn't permanent for elves, and he'll be back.

 

[MithLuin]

Olwë is never mentioned again in the Silmarillion after his meeting with Fëanor immediately before the kinslaying. His last stated act is to call upon Ossë to save the ships as the Noldor start rowing them away. Thus, while it is not said that he died in the Kinslaying...it is certainly possible. And as a TV show can't really get away with killing A Bunch of Random Nameless Elves in this scene and expect to get any impact out of it....his head is on the chopping block. But that will be a season 3 decision - we are merely setting things up in Season 2 so that we *could* kill him in Season 3, if we wanted to. [Though it seems we are headed in that direction at this time.]

Elves, however, can be reborn after they are slain, so Olwë could be alive again during the War of Wrath. This immortality thing is tricky, but we have to establish what 'die indeed' means for the tale of Lúthien to make any sense.



The Trial of Melkor should be in the Ring of Doom. All of the Valar have thrones there, and when Melkor comes to destroy the Trees, he will knock down their thrones in petty vengeance for their judging him in this scene.

I would vote for...no elves present. I don't think it will be a good idea to have them there, and I'm not sure what we would gain. I think that having the elves be...unwary...of him after his release works better if they did *not* witness the trial directly.

And yes, Melkor lays the repentance on thick. Umm....think, instead of the typical celebrity apology of 'I'm sorry if anyone was offended by my actions, but it wasn't really all that big of a deal so I don't know why we're talking about this'...more something like Mel Gibson's apology when he was caught in drunken tirade.

I use this interview as an example because Mel Gibson is a pretty likable guy, even in this conversation where he is admitting to a relapse into an alcoholic binge and making very bigoted and vulgar statements. As part of the fallout from this incident, he even reached out to the Jewish community. How 'sincere' he was is of course an open question for people to form their own opinions over. But I think that the way he talks about anger and having done something terrible, but that's not 'really' who he is....that's maybe the type of note we need to strike with Melkor - he should be able to fake humility convincingly enough for (some of) the Valar to want to give him a chance.

 

[MithLuin]

Shawn, the process is as follows:

The Execs ask questions about the next episode at the end of each session, for us to discuss here on the boards in preparation for the next session.

Phillip makes the new threads for us with those questions as the opening post, so everything should be kept somewhat organized.

Then, after we've gone over everything here, Phillip makes a summary report which he shares with the Execs just prior to the next session.

They are free to refer to our ideas or comment on them during the session if they wish, or just ignore them. But to their credit, I will say that Corey Olsen makes an effort to reference ideas from the boards every time. And Trish is good at slipping our ideas in as well.

Also, during the live session, anyone is welcome to type comments in, suggesting their 'favorite' ideas and pitching them. Or, if you are me, reacting in horror and yelling at the Execs in ALL CAPS when they start going off the rails in a direction that concerns me .

Rinse and Repeat every 2 weeks.


It's an ongoing process, and has been going fairly smoothly. There was at least one time when a discussion on the boards totally derailed the planned session discussion - we basically forced the Execs to address the question of 'Where Do Orcs Come From?' as we needed to know if we needed elves before Melkor's imprisonment in Season 1. The question was answered more-or-less satisfactorily... enough to plan out the season one scenes, and gave rise to the moniker 'Super Secret Necromantic Orc Project' being Sauron's plot for the first half of Season 2. But it did take the place of the 'planned' episode discussion that day.

So, yes, we might spend a week hashing out some ideas here, and develop an entire side story for a character...and then the Execs might be, eh, we don't need more characters, stop. That can happen. Or, they might like the idea, and adopt it. Working it out in some detail before sharing it with them just means it's easier to pitch the idea. Willingness to be flexible and change our ideas as we go is very important - this is a collaborative effort, so any one person's vision is not going to be what we end up with [Well, Corey Olsen gets final veto power, but I have found him to be very open to input thus far.] And if they don't comment on the idea, we are free to work it into the Script Outline if we like it, and let them see it there.


I will fight for things if I think we *need* them, or if leaving them out is altering Tolkien's story in some way for the worse. I will also passionately defend my favorite characters, so I don't mean to imply that I'm easily talked out of things...I can stubbornly hold onto stuff as long as possible, and sometimes the Execs have had to devote maybe a little more time than necessary to detailing just why they're shooting me down . But at the end of the day, it's not my call. So, do Fingolfin and Finarfin have 2 sisters? Will Irimë die in the Kinslaying? Will Maglor have a wife? Who knows? But I will at least remind people that Turgon needs a wife, so we don't get halfway across the Helcaraxë and realize we forgot all about Elenwë and Idril.

 

[Shawn Mitchell]

Shawn, the process is as follows:

The Execs ask questions about the next episode at the end of each session, for us to discuss here on the boards in preparation for the next session.

Phillip makes the new threads for us with those questions as the opening post, so everything should be kept somewhat organized.

Then, after we've gone over everything here, Phillip makes a summary report which he shares with the Execs just prior to the next session.

They are free to refer to our ideas or comment on them during the session if they wish, or just ignore them. But to their credit, I will say that Corey Olsen makes an effort to reference ideas from the boards every time. And Trish is good at slipping our ideas in as well.

Also, during the live session, anyone is welcome to type comments in, suggesting their 'favorite' ideas and pitching them. Or, if you are me, reacting in horror and yelling at the Execs in ALL CAPS when they start going off the rails in a direction that concerns me .

Rinse and Repeat every 2 weeks.


It's an ongoing process, and has been going fairly smoothly. There was at least one time when a discussion on the boards totally derailed the planned session discussion - we basically forced the Execs to address the question of 'Where Do Orcs Come From?' as we needed to know if we needed elves before Melkor's imprisonment in Season 1. The question was answered more-or-less satisfactorily... enough to plan out the season one scenes, and gave rise to the moniker 'Super Secret Necromantic Orc Project' being Sauron's plot for the first half of Season 2. But it did take the place of the 'planned' episode discussion that day.

So, yes, we might spend a week hashing out some ideas here, and develop an entire side story for a character...and then the Execs might be, eh, we don't need more characters, stop. That can happen. Or, they might like the idea, and adopt it. Working it out in some detail before sharing it with them just means it's easier to pitch the idea. Willingness to be flexible and change our ideas as we go is very important - this is a collaborative effort, so any one person's vision is not going to be what we end up with [Well, Corey Olsen gets final veto power, but I have found him to be very open to input thus far.] And if they don't comment on the idea, we are free to work it into the Script Outline if we like it, and let them see it there.


I will fight for things if I think we *need* them, or if leaving them out is altering Tolkien's story in some way for the worse. I will also passionately defend my favorite characters, so I don't mean to imply that I'm easily talked out of things...I can stubbornly hold onto stuff as long as possible, and sometimes the Execs have had to devote maybe a little more time than necessary to detailing just why they're shooting me down . But at the end of the day, it's not my call. So, do Fingolfin and Finarfin have 2 sisters? Will Irimë die in the Kinslaying? Will Maglor have a wife? Who knows? But I will at least remind people that Turgon needs a wife, so we don't get halfway across the Helcaraxë and realize we forgot all about Elenwë and Idril.

MithLuin, thanks for the details on how things flow. I knew Phillip gathered and consolidated things for the execs ... he was kind enough to reply to one of my posts and explain that portion. I guess it's just the "project management" side of me that likes to look for efficiency. The Tolkien "nerd" side of me loves all of these discussions, whether they are used or not. The more "process oriented" side of me thinks it would be great to focus all of this creativity and work out the details to just the things the execs want ... therefore giving more pertinent material to you guys who are script writing. Which, by the way, must be a bit of a daunting task.

Either way this entire thing is great and I'm grateful that you guys allow me to contribute in any way.


Now concerning the trial: My vote was to actually have the elves there. I envisioned (to the extent that I can) a situation that parallels the talk Gandalf and Saruman had after the ents took down Isengard. Have Melkor, in the presence of the elves, exerting a massive amount of "influence" through his speech. Putting almost a spell on the MOST of the elves present (and maybe even some of the Maiar). On a side note we could show Curumo completely enamored with Melkor or at least with the influence he can throw with just his voice. Of course this would have little effect on people like Tulkas and Ulmo (maybe no effect on any of the Valar) and it would only infuriate some of them b/c they can clearly see what he is doing. This also allows us to show the power of Melkor ... even after the imprisonment. I've always thought to have a compelling "good vs evil" story you have to spend sufficient time building up the power of the bad guy ... otherwise, who cares? Plus it shows how, from the beginning, the elves were impressed by him - thus giving an ear to his half truths. Anyway, this is just a thought.

 

[MithLuin]

The challenge with this Trial is that we did not show the Trial when he was imprisoned in the first place. We saw Melkor in chains dragged to Valinor, and we heard from Aulë that he's imprisoned in Mandos for '3 Ages' in episode 2.

So, perhaps if we open this episode with a flashback of Melkor's original trial, of him standing in the Ring of Doom, and all the Valar on their thrones, fresh from the War...and hear what is said at that time concerning his fate and how it's more a 'time-out' than a 'we keel you'. That could set the stage for why Melkor is being released now.

Then, this 'trial' could be a very different scene. In the published Silmarillion, it happens before the gates of Valmar, and maybe all the Valar aren't there. Melkor does see the elves (for the first time?) and hates them, but hides it well.

The other tricky thing is that Námo does not weigh in. He's been Melkor's jailer....shouldn't he have something to say about this? And if he does...surely he knows, deep down *knows*, that Melkor's repentance is not sincere. And yet he stands there silent....why? Why does he allow Nienna's plea to stand?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

The problem with having the Valar realize that he is exerting his power to influence the elves is: why would they then let him loose among them? If Manwe is aware of Melkor's deceit here, he's not going to release him.

 

[Shawn Mitchell]

The problem with having the Valar realize that he is exerting his power to influence the elves is: why would they then let him loose among them? If Manwe is aware of Melkor's deceit here, he's not going to release him.

The power he exerts is simply b/c he is Melkor. Melkor is by our moral compasses a bad guy ... true. BUT, Melkor's native power is unbelievable ... I mean literally his power is inconceivable to even the elves. Saruman's specific exertion of power, through his voice, and it's influence on others is but a mockery. It may not be perceived, and in truth he may not even intend it, as a deceit. It's ever present b/c he's ... well he's Melkor ... and to paraphrase Ron Burgandy "He's kind of a big deal" haha. I think some of the Valar who were already suspicious could see it as just another annoying thing about Melkor ... to those who are not suspicious they just accept that Melkor's words naturally exude a power over lesser beings. To take it step further, since this is the first time Melkor has been in the presence of elves in front of the Valar perhaps the Valar are at first not aware that he influences them to such a degree.

 

[Marielle]

The other tricky thing is that Námo does not weigh in. He's been Melkor's jailer....shouldn't he have something to say about this? And if he does...surely he knows, deep down *knows*, that Melkor's repentance is not sincere. And yet he stands there silent....why? Why does he allow Nienna's plea to stand?

This is a challenge with Mandos throughout, or any seer character in fiction, actually. If he *knows* what is to happen, why doesn't he say so/prevent it from happening. Would it be too forced to have a scene with him, sometime this season, in which he directly tells another character "Eru has commissioned me, not to predict actions, but to judge them."?

I vote that the elves not be present at the trial. I just can't escape the image of the great and terrible gods passing doom and a lesser creature interrupting with a "well, actually..." I can't see how that wouldn't be ridiculous or simply funny. I'm, of course, always willing to be convinced otherwise.

Playing around with Melkor's influence, in a way similar to Saruman... could we show him actually influencing some of the other Ainur? He's not yet so diminished, and he did begin as the greatest among them. It certainly would raise the stakes, as well, if we saw him capable of swaying with his words/personality some of the Maiar and even a Vala or two.

 

[Shawn Mitchell]

This is a challenge with Mandos throughout, or any seer character in fiction, actually. If he *knows* what is to happen, why doesn't he say so/prevent it from happening. Would it be too forced to have a scene with him, sometime this season, in which he directly tells another character "Eru has commissioned me, not to predict actions, but to judge them."?

I agree with both you and MithLuin about the fact that Namo HAS to *know* that the repentance is not genuine. But personally I think it's better to leave it unexplained ... seems to add more mystery to his character. Sometimes to much explanation causes some characters to lose that aura ... or at least to me it seems that way. I think it would be fun to have the audience saying the same thing all of us have said for years, "... wait! why doesn't that guy just say something b/c I know he KNOWS!!" haha

I still think, that in some way, we should show that Melkor still exerts a massive amount of influence/power. For these types of stories to have a climatic build up, which is what the ensuing events should be, the bad guy MUST be formidable and that has to be conveyed somehow to the audience. Otherwise, you start to get into Wiley Coyote territory. The trial may, or may not, be the place to show that ... but we should hammer out some details on how to make that happen.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I agree with both you and MithLuin about the fact that Namo HAS to *know* that the repentance is not genuine. But personally I think it's better to leave it unexplained ... seems to add more mystery to his character. Sometimes to much explanation causes some characters to lose that aura ... or at least to me it seems that way. I think it would be fun to have the audience saying the same thing all of us have said for years, "... wait! why doesn't that guy just say something b/c I know he KNOWS!!" haha

I still think, that in some way, we should show that Melkor still exerts a massive amount of influence/power. For these types of stories to have a climatic build up, which is what the ensuing events should be, the bad guy MUST be formidable and that has to be conveyed somehow to the audience. Otherwise, you start to get into Wiley Coyote territory. The trial may, or may not, be the place to show that ... but we should hammer out some details on how to make that happen.

I think we can eventually explain why Namo doesn't attempt to influence events even when he knows the outcome, but I think the place for that is in Season 3, during the "evil will be good to have been" conversation with Manwë following the departure of the Noldor. Manwë could straight up ask Namo if he knew the Noldor would rebel and he could reply with Marielle's idea. His place is to judge actions after they happen, not influence them.

It just seems like a natural place to have that conversation.

 

[Marielle]

I think we can eventually explain why Namo doesn't attempt to influence events even when he knows the outcome, but I think the place for that is in Season 3, during the "evil will be good to have been" conversation with Manwë following the departure of the Noldor. Manwë could straight up ask Namo if he knew the Noldor would rebel and he could reply with Marielle's idea. His place is to judge actions after they happen, not influence them.

It just seems like a natural place to have that conversation.

I agree, that's a better place.

As to Shawn's point, I'm also in agreement that we need Melkor to still be influencial and powerful, even against a population wary of him. I hadn't thought of it in Looney Tunes terms, but Wiley Coyote is as good an example as any of what we CAN'T have.

I don't think the trial is to spell that out in its entirety, but if we have a few of the non-speaking Maiar nodding their heads as he speaks, and a few of the Valar more sympathetic than we had expected, it can plant the seeds of a motif we can keep coming back to.

 

[Ray Burns]

One thing to remember is that, at this point, Melkor's powers have not been diminished to the extent that they will be diminished later. So, he can still exert a tremendous amount of persuasion even on other of the Valar. At the same time, it would be an interesting visual if we see Tulkas, who is usually laughing and/or smiling, looking daggers at Melkor, so we know that not all the Valar are being swayed.

As for Mandos, perhaps we have a moment where he is specifically asked what his opinion is; and, he says something typically Mandos-like such as: "Events must move forward as they're ordained. If I give an opinion yea or nay, the consequences could be far worse than anyone can foresee."

One of the most interesting things that I remember from the Silmarillion Seminar is the thought that Nienna and her mercy were actually the primary component of the third theme of the Music. IF that is the case, then Mandos should give a very knowing look to Manwe when she is speaking.

 

[Richol Richards]

I'll throw in my two cents and agree with showing Melkor's power definitely having an effect. Same for the visual reaction from Tulkas. Re: Mandos, I think the less he says the better. Preferably nothing at all, but I imagine his opinion would indeed be sought at some point during the proceedings. In that case, a cryptic answer seems most fitting. As to the elves....while the idea of them being present at the trial (not weighing in, just being present) does appeal to me, I can't find a compelling enough reason *to* have them there. Maybe a few of the Valar would want to include them, others less so? I think at the end of the day I'd have to side with just keeping them out of this.

I love MithLuin's suggestion that we open the episode with a flashback of Melkor's original trial to set the stage. The Gibson video was a good frame of reference for Melkor's repentance in this trial...perhaps his body language could be a bit less fidgety, more smooth, maintaining eye contact a little longer, that sort of thing?...

 

[MithLuin]

MithLuin, I like the fact that you bring in all the details ... NOT just the Silmarillion proper.

That is what we pay her the big nickels for.

If I had a nickel for every time.....

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I also think that having the elves present has some problems. Here's the difficulty, though. In scenario 1, the Valar just don't inform the elves what is going on, which seems ... really underhanded and suspicious. What do they have to hide? For what reason do they not want to inform the elves of this?

In scenario 2, they do tell them, but do not invite them. Are none of the elves curious to see this villain they've been told about? Do they ask and told they cannot attend? What do the Valar have to hide? Why won't the elves watch?

Let's say we play out either scenario and Manwë announces, "Remember that bad guy we told you ruined everything? The guy we had locked up? Well, he said he's sorry and we really think he's turned a new leaf, so come and meet Melkor everybody!"

 

[Shawn Mitchell]

I also think that having the elves present has some problems. Here's the difficulty, though. In scenario 1, the Valar just don't inform the elves what is going on, which seems ... really underhanded and suspicious. What do they have to hide? For what reason do they not want to inform the elves of this?

In scenario 2, they do tell them, but do not invite them. Are none of the elves curious to see this villain they've been told about? Do they ask and told they cannot attend? What do the Valar have to hide? Why won't the elves watch?

Let's say we play out either scenario and Manwë announces, "Remember that bad guy we told you ruined everything? The guy we had locked up? Well, he said he's sorry and we really think he's turned a new leaf, so come and meet Melkor everybody!"

Nicholas, what if we split it down the middle and have one or two representatives each from the Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri? That way you don't have a spectacle and you don't have a situation where it seems like the Valar are hiding something. Just a thought.