Session 2.11 for S2E07

'Cold-blooded' is not a word I would use to describe Fëanor. Yes, he kills the Teleri - in a fight. He's furious that in his time of need, when he asked them to borrow their ships...they said no. He's feeling a bit betrayed after that, and decides to just take the ships. It's not his fault the Teleri got in the way and chose to fight back...they should have just let the Noldor have the ships and then no one would have died.....

These aren't the thoughts of a cold-blooded, calculating murderer. They aren't the thoughts of a calm, level-headed person, either. They're the thoughts of a slightly paranoid, very upset, entitled brat who lost his temper.

Fëanor is more than slightly unhinged after the murder of his father and the theft of the silmarils. Sure, he's still coherent enough to get his act together enough to make an impassioned speech....but he's terribly worried the Noldor are going to think better of it if he gives them a chance to take their time, so he's rushing and pushing everyone to go NOW NOW NOW....

....and then the Teleri throw up an unexpected roadblock and get in his way. At that point, he loses his temper, and a lot of very ugly things bubble out.


How is this different from Túrin's murder of Brodda the Easterling, by the way? Or of Saeros, who unwisely insulted Túrin's mother? Doriath might not be paradise, but... There are a lot of tragic deaths around Túrin that are more unfortunate or unlucky (poor Beleg!) but to overlook Túrin's culpability and blame everything on the curse isn't a fair evaluation.

Fëanor is meant to be a tragic hero, not a villain. He had great potential, accomplished a lot...and in the end, fell very, very far. As is so often the case, his pride got in his way, and his temper led to some terrible decisions, and there was more than a tinge of madness in his actions.
 
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I agree. Feanor has a spirit of fire, not ice.

I also agree we should save our "brooding lvl 10" for Eol/Maeglin, as someone stated earlier. Feanor is much more likely, I think, to lash out instantly than to sit on perceived insults for years. He can still have his anger/resentments grow and grow and grow, without that being a contradiction -- my younger sister, for example, lashes out instantly when insulted, and still remembers them years later. So his main moments of transgression can be a mix of "heat of the moment" and "stewing in anger".

Edit: That "someone" was Karita Alexander!
 
MithLuin said:
'Cold-blooded' is not a word I would use to describe Fëanor. Yes, he kills the Teleri - in a fight. He's furious that in his time of need, when he asked them to borrow their ships...they said no. He's feeling a bit betrayed after that, and decides to just take the ships. It's not his fault the Teleri got in the way and chose to fight back...they should have just let the Noldor have the ships and then no one would have died.....

These aren't the thoughts of a cold-blooded, calculating murderer. They aren't the thoughts of a calm, level-headed person, either. They're the thoughts of a slightly paranoid, very upset, entitled brat who lost his temper.

Fëanor is more than slightly unhinged after the murder of his father and the theft of the silmarils. Sure, he's still coherent enough to get his act together enough to make an impassioned speech....but he's terribly worried the Noldor are going to think better of it if he gives them a chance to take their time, so he's rushing and pushing everyone to go NOW NOW NOW....

....and then the Teleri throw up an unexpected roadblock and get in his way. At that point, he loses his temper, and a lot of very ugly things bubble out.


How is this different from Túrin's murder of Brodda the Easterling, by the way? Or of Saeros, who unwisely insulted Túrin's mother? There are a lot of tragic deaths around Túrin that are more unfortunate or unlucky (poor Beleg!) but to overlook Túrin's culpability and blame everything on the curse isn't a fair evaluation.

Fëanor is meant to be a tragic hero, not a villain. He had great potential, accomplished a lot...and in the end, fell very, very far.
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See this is why I love these discussion boards ... a place to share opinions and agree to disagree in a fun way ... or at least I hope that's they way everyone takes it haha.

Why I disagree: Feanor laughs and says "none and none" knowing full well it may mean the death of Fingolfin and his followers. In fact it's worse - he couldn't care less if they lived, died, moved on, etc... Emotional hot head absolutely - at times. A cold blooded killer when needed, even if unjust ... absolutely. No doubt in my mind Tolkien portrayed him that way.

Brodda? you mean the Easterling that took his fathers land and all of his possessions AFTER Morgoth decimated everything his people had?? Yeah, off the hip I'm gonna have to say that's a LITTLE different than a guy living in the lap of luxury who calculatingly leaves his kin to rot in an isolated hostile place AFTER he's murdered some of this other kin LOL. Saeros, jumped off a cliff ... we have no idea, outside of an epic beating, what Turin was going to do. HOWEVER, as I pointed out, towards the end he had fallen to the point of murder as well. BUT, these are just my opinions and it's fun to debate this interesting world Tolkien created.
 
Shawn Mitchell said:
See this is why I love these discussion boards ... a place to share opinions and agree to disagree in a fun way ... or at least I hope that's they way everyone takes it haha.

Why I disagree: Feanor laughs and says "none and none" knowing full well it may mean the death of Fingolfin and his followers. In fact it's worse - he couldn't care less if they lived, died, moved on, etc... Emotional hot head absolutely - at times. A cold blooded killer when needed, even if unjust ... absolutely. No doubt in my mind Tolkien portrayed him that way.
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I agree burning the ships is the most calculating thing that Feanor ever does. And maybe the worst, since there's no reason for it but spite. But I wouldn't define it as "cold-blooded". That implies a degree of detached rationality that, frankly, I don't think Feanor is capable of at that point. Paranoia, spite, and hatred aren't cold, they're often blazing hot. Ruthless, perhaps, is a better descriptor than cold-blooded.

This is not in any way to justify or reduce his crimes, but rather a clarification of Feanor's character. I don't think he's capable of being "cold" about much of anything, especially after his father dies.
 
It is rather implied that Fëanor thinks Fingolfin will go back to Valinor. To conclude he intentionally left them all to die on the ice is reading too much into it, I think. However, we can have one of the twins die in the burning of the ships, and we will show Maedhros break with his father over it, so I think the condemnation and awfulness of Fëanor's actions in that moment will be on full display in that scene (which will be early in Season 3).

But we were speaking of Fëanor's childhood, well before the madness and grief took over. What should be most apparent at this time is Fëanor's tremendous skill, and his stubbornness and temper should be present, but not causing a huge concern. People excuse him or put up with him at this point - he's the son of the king and he beats everyone at creativity and craftsmanship, so....he's used to getting his way. And everyone knows he grew up without his mother, and are probably willing to chalk up his eccentricities to that.
 
Fëanor's twin sons Amrod and Amras. In one (late) version of the story, Amrod is aboard one of the ships when they are burned.
 
Oh. OUCH! I didn't know that one. Having Feanor murder one of his own sons?.... That's a step we'd have to think through carefully.
 
It's possible he doesn't know Amrod is on the ship - it's an accidental death. But, yes, no idea if we're using that version of the story.
 
It would certainly be a powerful character moment. I assume Feanor would think the ships were empty: the point is to spite his brother and his follows, not his own. And he could be upset, and mourn, but refuse to hesitate or re-think his larger goals: the last "lost chance" to repent. Or we could have him almost oblivious to the tragedy, which would illustrate his breaking relationship with reality, and Maedros' frustration with him.

But again, that's Season 4.
 
One angle we could take is presenting Feanor as a narcissistic sociopath, so that he can have his passions and the people and things he genuinely loves, but that he isn't really able to empathize with anyone. My only concern with that angle is that I wouldn't want to imply that he is somehow not responsible for his actions by reason of "insanity" or anything to that effect....
 
Shawn Mitchell said:
Karita, in reference to Feanor's character, I think it would be hard to pull off the "a good guy at his core but makes really bad emotional decisions." I have always seen Turin as this kind of guy. In fact, I've always thought Turin's character was exactly what you mentioned. However, if we stick to the text (and we are certainly not bound to do so), Feanor is a murderer. VERY gifted, probably capable of being kind and generous, but still a cold blooded murderer. In my opinion, we'd have to deviate from the text early on to pull off a "good guy that seems to make bad life choices." Just my thinking on it.

And yes, the text shows that even Turin, at the end had regressed to the point where he was clearly capable of murder as well. However, when he got to this point he hadn't exactly been raised and living in a virtual paradise.
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I totally agree that Turin also fits that description very well. He is another of the more complicated characters in the Silmarillion; but in addition to Turin's wont for emotionally driven poor decisions (which he has in common with Feanor), the thing that strikes me about him is his haplessness. He is a good guy at his core and tries really hard, he wants to do the good things, and just...man, it all goes badly. I'm always left wondering how many of the terrible things that happen are his fault vs the fault of him being under a curse.
I don't see that about Feanor. He isn't hapless, he is a jerk. A super talented, amazing jerk who appreciated beauty and made incredible things. Toward the end there, I think it is fair to say that he is full on coco for cocoa puffs, driven crazy by obsession, but I think we should emphasis how far he falls rather than playing up him having a bad streak all along..even if that part is also true.

As a kids and young adults, here is how I imagine Turin and Feanor differently:
Turin, stuck between being really good at almost everything and not getting love easily. Good at his core, but troubled. Beautiful, but unlucky.
Feanor, restless and brilliant, loving beauty but also having a possessive streak. Starting a great artistic mind, ending in murder and madness

You are right, it is great to have a place to disagree and discuss. And if my hope is to have a character that people walk away from with divided opinions about, than we are off to a great start!
 
Haakon said:
I think he turns into something like that.
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Well, I mean, you don't "turn into" a sociopath, it's a brain problem that leaves you unable to empathize with other people, so you cannot think of them AS people in the way you think of yourself as a person.
 
ouzaru said:
Well, I mean, you don't "turn into" a sociopath, it's a brain problem that leaves you unable to empathize with other people, so you cannot think of them AS people in the way you think of yourself as a person.
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I know.

Or rather, I would nuance that, since AS is a syndrome that has a continuum.

But since Fëanor is an elf, we can't really use this kind of reasoning. What we can do however is use it as a kind of metaphor. That's why I wrote 'something like that'.
 
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Karita Alexander said:
I totally agree that Turin also fits that description very well. He is another of the more complicated characters in the Silmarillion; but in addition to Turin's wont for emotionally driven poor decisions (which he has in common with Feanor), the thing that strikes me about him is his haplessness. He is a good guy at his core and tries really hard, he wants to do the good things, and just...man, it all goes badly. I'm always left wondering how many of the terrible things that happen are his fault vs the fault of him being under a curse.
I don't see that about Feanor. He isn't hapless, he is a jerk. A super talented, amazing jerk who appreciated beauty and made incredible things. Toward the end there, I think it is fair to say that he is full on coco for cocoa puffs, driven crazy by obsession, but I think we should emphasis how far he falls rather than playing up him having a bad streak all along..even if that part is also true.

As a kids and young adults, here is how I imagine Turin and Feanor differently:
Turin, stuck between being really good at almost everything and not getting love easily. Good at his core, but troubled. Beautiful, but unlucky.
Feanor, restless and brilliant, loving beauty but also having a possessive streak. Starting a great artistic mind, ending in murder and madness

You are right, it is great to have a place to disagree and discuss. And if my hope is to have a character that people walk away from with divided opinions about, than we are off to a great start!
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Karita, I actually don't think we see things that differently, concerning his character (or Turin's for that matter) once we delve into it. I guess I've always seen Feanor, at his core, as "broken" or "bad"?? To be honest I've always seen striking similarities between him and Melkor. Neither of them start off as intentionally plotting evil deeds ... but some moral compass inside is broken ... broken enough so that if evil is indeed the only path to get what they desire then evil deeds it will be. I do agree he's a jerk; but I think at his core it's worse than that. Turin, is just that guy you really like for friend, has incredible talent but always seems to be tripping over a dollar to pick up a dime.

BUT, the good news is that we DO get to have these wonderful discussions and we can portray jerk Feanor in what ever way the Execs and Script Writers desire! :) I think this whole process, fleshing out these details, is soooo much fun. I haven't thought this much about Tolkiens world (or the real one for that matter) in years! haha
 
Part of what Fëanor and Túrin have in common is both the role of Morgoth setting disaster in their paths and the role of their own pride preventing them from doing the right thing.

Both are tragic characters. With Túrin, you can argue all day whether it was his fate (governed by Morgoth's curse) that caused all the tragedy, or if his own bad choices were to blame (seems a mix).

With Fëanor, it's a much more clear cut fall - he hits a turning point where all of his decisions from then forward (despite how much he might try to justify them to himself) are clearly off the rails. That turning point happens when he runs off alone into the Night after getting the news of his father's death (and the theft of the silmarils) - which happens just after his decision to refuse to surrender the silmarils to Yavanna to save the Trees.

Túrin likewise makes a final fatal error that sends him hurtling towards his doom - he looks Glaurung in the eye.

Túrin is hapless - Master of Doom by Doom Mastered. Fëanor....is the force that drags all of the Noldor to their ultimate doom. They're not the same person, that's for sure, and they don't have the same agency within their stories. But the 'pride goes before a fall' cautionary tale applies to both.

The Fëanor/Melkor connection is strong, and there is a bit of a nihilistic 'If I can't have it, no one can!' bent to Fëanor's later choices that looks quite familiar. His hatred is directed at Morgoth, though, not at the Valar or the Teleri. They just....get in his way.
 
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I'm hesitant about going for the mentally unwell angle, for a few reasons. As you pointed out, Ouzaru, it might indicate that he is in some sense not responsible for his actions.
I'm sure you are all aware of this next reason (I don't mean to preach to the choir), but another reason I'm reluctant is that not all sociopaths are violent, and not all violent people are sociopaths. To be sure, mental illness may lead to violent behavior, but I find it distressing when a person does something horrible (like shooting a bunch of civilians) and the news reports immediately grab the slant of "mentally ill person goes on violent rampage" even when there is no evidence that this person has mental health issues. Meanwhile lots of people with mental health struggles are waving their hands and saying "Hey, we aren't with him. Not all of us are dangerous."
Feanor goes crazy, for sure. But I think that madness is brought forward as a result of his choices rather than the other way around.
 
Look, I agree completely with Karita about portraying people in this series as mentally unwell or challenged - let's not do that. I agree that we should see them make lose control and perspective and make bad choices for other reasons than what might be classified as psychiatric syndromes or disorders. I work as a clinical psychologist and have the greatest respect for people with these kinds of problems. I'm also obviously a Tolkien fan and I don't want to turn his stories into something that they aren't - and they aren't stories about mental illness. If there's a connection it would be that people are in crisis and struggling.
But you can use descriptions of different sets of traits which are common enough to be understood to paint a picture of what is happening to or inside a person. Just as long as we're clear about the limitations of that analogy.
 
It's extremely important to get Fëanor right. We do not want another Anakin in our story.

Let's remember that there must be a reason Nerdanel marries him and raises seven sons with him. She connects with him in a way other cannot. I don't think its fair to her to have Fëanor be a jerk, 'mental' or something like that. He makes choices that leads down a dark path and without her company things should derail even further. When you have ordered the kinslaying (and the oath of course), there isn't really a way back for Fëanor.

I think Fëanor must have a lot of fantastic qualities. Too much for his own good. He's a great speaker and convinces many to act against the Valar's will. He does things in the work of craft that noone can replicate. This quote says it all:

"For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him."
Pride is a theme in Tolkien, a theme that leads even the greatest to their downfall. Fëanor is a prime example of the elves.
 
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