Session 2.13 for S2E09

[MithLuin]

It is going to be the 'oh, the Valar lied to you!' moment for the Noldor, so it's going to happen in the episode where Fëanor draws a sword on Fingolfin. First, he starts in on the Middle Earth nostalgia.

 

[MithLuin]

And, yes, it's going to have to be a total family betrayal when Maedhros recognizes Fingolfin as High King....so the circling the wagons in defense of Fëanor's reputation has to be present from the beginning.

I can easily see Curufin and Caranthir getting into fights with each other...and leaving off to fight Finarfin's sons.

 

[MithLuin]

I keep running into stories about 7 sons! The Sunday readings were from Maccabees, where a mother and seven brothers are all tortured to death one by one for refusing to transgress the Law, and then the gospel has the question put to Jesus of 'so, if a woman marries someone, and he dies, so she marries his brother, and he dies, and likewise all 7 of the brothers die, and then the woman dies (childless), then whose wife is she in the resurrection?'

The...umm...iconography? of seven brothers is a part of why I would be really annoyed if we eliminated (say) Fëanor's twin sons because yes they don't do anything in the story and are mostly just there to fill in the 7 brothers....but the 5 sons of Fëanor just isn't as cool.

Also, it turns out that Dwight Eisenhowser was one of 7 sons, so I'm now convinced that Ike is our Fëanorean president .

 

[Haakon]

Have I missed it (and I fully admit that I've been very distracted), but have we discussed whether or not Melkor mentions Men to the Elves yet? We could use that as part of the dissatisfaction of the elves in general... the thought that there is to be another Child of Iluvatar and that it appears that they will have free reign over Middle-Earth while the Noldor remain 'trapped' in Valinor.

We have discussed this yes (perhaps in this thread?) and I brought it up during the last session. Dr O said he wanted Melkor to ask about the Children in the next episode, the same as when the weapons are made and the conflict escalates. I really think such a scene should include Noldor of an older generation - perhaps Rúmil? - as well as younger ones, like Fingolfin and/or Nerdanel. That way, we get a broader spectrum of reactions to the fact that the Valar haven't spoken about the Second Children.

 

[Ray Burns]

The...umm...iconography? of seven brothers

Isn't there a tale where Amrod is killed at Losgar when Feanor torches the ships? If we incorporate this, it could be used to demonstrate just how far Feanor has fallen when his reaction to his son dying isn't sorrow. Or, to make Feanor a somewhat sympathetic character, Feanor goes a little crazy (crazier?) when he realizes that his zeal for the silmarils and hatred for Fingolfin has resulted in the death of his son, so that spurs him to the great deeds he does in the Battle under the Stars and then to push just a little further and try to assault Angband directly, thus resulting in his death. Either way, we can use the death of Amrod as a plot point (fridge the elf!) and keep the iconic nature of 7 sons but immediately show how that is broken when it is not 6 sons. We could even have people talk of the "Seven Sons of Feanor... oh, I mean Six Sons, sorry..."

 

[MithLuin]

Yes, there are a few things that *may* happen next season that we will eventually need direction on from the Execs.

* Do we include Indis' daughters (Findis and Irime)? The direction on this seems to be YES, or at least Irime, so she will then die in the Kinslaying at Alqualondë. [Tolkien has versions with 2 or 3 daughters, but no more, because Finwë can't have more kids than Fëanor But it's okay to give him a Brady bunch....]
* Does Amrod die at Losgar in the burning of the ships? Or does he survive the entire first age to die with his twin at Sirion?
* Do we include Argon (not by that name!) as a younger brother of Fingon and Turgon who is killed in the first battle in Beleriand after surviving the Helcaraxë?

The death of Amrod can be very poignant, as his twin would be...a twin without a twin. Amras can be the precursor of Elrond in that sense (and the death of Amras (and Amrod?) at the Havens is likely tied to Maglor's decision to adopt Elrond and Elros).

The only 'rule' for the deaths of the Sons of Fëanor is that they all have to die at the hands of an elf; none of them are killed by Morgoth or Morgoth's slaves or evil beasts or anything like that.

That being said - the burning of the ships and the madness of Fëanor is already pretty horrible. We don't need this detail to convey the horror of this part of the story, though it....wouldn't hurt.

 

[MithLuin]

For some reason, I have the mind to make a swath of carnage...by which I mean a neat list of soon-to-be dead elves, so we can see where some things are headed.

ELF DEATH

Season 2:
Iminyë - prior to the opening of Episode 1; returns from Mandos in episode 5
Míriel - episode 6; fades after the birth of Fëanor and her spirit flees to Mandos
Finwë - episode 13; slain by Melkor after the Darkening

Season 3:

Olwë (king of the Teleri) - slain during the Kinslaying (by Fëanor?)
Olwë's sons/grandsons (cousins of Finarfin's kids) - Galadriel will have a close friend on her maternal side who shared her dream of going to Middle Earth (introduced in S2: Episode 10) who dies in the Kinslaying
Irime (sister of Fingolfin) - slain by Teleri arrows at the Kinslaying

Denethor (son of Lenwë) - Early in the Season, he will lead the Green Elves into Beleriand. He will die in the first orc attack Morgoth unleashes on Beleriand (which will lead to Menegroth and the Girdle of Melian).

Amrod? (youngest son of Fëanor) - he can die in the burning of the ships at Losgar....or we can save him to die later

Fëanor - dies from his wounds after fighting balrogs outside Thangorodrim

Elenwë (Vanya wife of Turgon) - dies while crossing the Helcaraxë, leaving behind a young daughter

Argon? (son of Fingolfin) - dies in the first battle of the Noldor in Beleriand


Did I forget anyone? And do we want to show any elves dying of grief? That is, after all, a thing that can happen..... Obviously, a ton of nameless Teleri are going to die in the Kinslaying, and Maedhros' entire host is going to be slaughtered by Morgoth in the false parley. But I meant characters whose names/backstories we know.

 

[Ziggy]

Just decided to start listening to the Silm Film project today on a whim, and all the suggestions for who would be for or against Melkor in his attempt to look penitent really got some ideas going. I was originally against the idea that Fingolfin would even give Melkor the time of day (much less listen to him) but I like the tension that it establishes for when they have their duel after Dagor Bragollach. But I also had some ideas and twists in mind that were not mentioned, so I figured this was the best place to present them and see if they got any traction.

An early subject of discussion was who among the Noldor would listen to Melkor and become supporters of his cause. Below are listed some that came to mind.
Celegorm (and Curufin): the dark character of these two sons becomes clearer as the story progresses in Beleriand, but it dose not mean that they began this way. Orome's gift of Huan to Celegorm would suggest that he was not always the wicked schemer that his later actions indicate. But the introduction of Melkor's corruption early into the lives of these two sons would help to explain the downward spiral of the sons of Feanor out of the favor of the Valar and into the hands of Morgoth. Knowledge that his children are growing close to Melkor, much less his favorite son, would certainly get under Feanor's skin and start to fray his relationships with them. His desire to have the 'love' of his sons in light of their coming of age and listening to the counsels of a hated enemy would be a powerful thread that leads Feanor to demand their fealty by swearing The Oath.
Galadriel: it is difficult to believe that the animosity between Feanor and Galadriel was a great secret, making it a great tool that Melkor would undoubtedly put to good use. Galadriel is about 6600 years younger than the woman we meet in Lothlorien in the Third Age, so she needs to have a bit of growing to do between that time and her Valinor. At this time she is highly intelligent but young and ambitious, and so long as Melkor can keep her focused on the feud with Feanor he can certainly make subtle inroads into her counsels.
Mairon: while he is certainly not a Noldor, I thought this period of time would be a great opportunity to develop the relationship between Melkor and Mairon. Unfortunately I then went back and rediscovered he becomes Sauron before Melkor's first imprisonment during the Ages of the Trees, and bringing Sauron back to Valinor after the awakening of the Elves would be deviating significantly from canon (and being a purist, alas, that cannot be done!) I just thought that if Melkor had an agent in Aule's camp it would be a great help in twisting the Noldor's passion for craft against them. I can even see Mairon telling some unsuspecting Noldor, 'Look, Aule doesn't want me to show you this, but this is how we Ainur do that. Just consider it my little gift to you.' But again, alas, the timeline does not allow it.

 

[Haakon]

Welcome Ziggy! It's great to bring in new blood and new perspectives to this project. Your ideas are quite interesting I think. I'm not sure I agree with them, but nonetheless.

Celegorm (and Curufin):

I think this could be done but I can see a couple of problems. One would be that the sons of Fëanor probably should be portrayed as being super loyal to their father. Another is that their 'path to evil' or to darkness is tied closely to their father's fall, and to the oath they swear and the subsequent kinslaying. These actions are clearly leading to a fall, and are also in a way caused by the actions and schemes of Melkor. Perhaps they should be enough.

Galadriel:

This would be pretty interesting, especially since we have Galadriel telling parts of the story, in the frame. But if she's listening to Melkor, we need to show her process out of his sphere of influence in a clear way. She could listen to him in the beginning - oh but then she's pretty young in our version of the story, right? Ok, she could be shown as being a little child listening to him - but that would be a bit strange perhaps since she says no to Fëanor - her integrity won't be the same if she listens to Melkor.... Hmmm

Mairon:

Mairon is already lieutenant of Angband in our story I'm afraid.

So since you're into it, I'd suggest going back and listen to some older sessions. You don't have to go through season one immidiately, but season two is rather good to get a grip on.
Good to have you here!

 

[Marielle]

Celegorm (and Curufin): the dark character of these two sons becomes clearer as the story progresses in Beleriand, but it dose not mean that they began this way. Orome's gift of Huan to Celegorm would suggest that he was not always the wicked schemer that his later actions indicate. But the introduction of Melkor's corruption early into the lives of these two sons would help to explain the downward spiral of the sons of Feanor out of the favor of the Valar and into the hands of Morgoth. Knowledge that his children are growing close to Melkor, much less his favorite son, would certainly get under Feanor's skin and start to fray his relationships with them. His desire to have the 'love' of his sons in light of their coming of age and listening to the counsels of a hated enemy would be a powerful thread that leads Feanor to demand their fealty by swearing The Oath.

That's an interesting idea. It made me realize that I had always be presuming that Celegorm and Curufin's fall was due, largely, to "daddy worship", as they seem to be the most devoted to the idea of the Oath (if not actually doing anything about it) of all the Sons of Feanor. I'm not sure we have the screen time to develop a relationship between either or both of them with Melkor and give justice for a Feanor "I don't want you hanging out with him anymore" plot line. Still, I think your last point -- the reaction Feanor would have -- is incredibly insightful. I certainly think that one of his sons, at least, should feel compelled to take the Oath to prove his love/loyalty to his father... I'm just not sure that should be Celegorm or Curufin.

 

[Ray Burns]

What if one of the Maiar who initially listens to Melkor is Curumo? While he would eventually move away from Melkor's influence, it would show that he's willing to entertain such notions.

 

[Marielle]

What if one of the Maiar who initially listens to Melkor is Curumo? While he would eventually move away from Melkor's influence, it would show that he's willing to entertain such notions.

That could definitely work, but last season the execs suggested that Curumo would be "proudly part of the establishment" and indignant at Melkor's airs. I think we could instead play with the theme of "doing the wrong thing for the right reason/right thing for the wrong reason" and have Curumo scorn Melkor, so that he can later claim to have "seen through" him and assert himself as the best one to go to Middle Earth as he's never been fooled by Melkor, when really he was just too proud/dignified to be seen associating with a known "criminal".

 

[MithLuin]

I think it is a challenge to choose *any* of the Noldor to be friendly with Melkor during this time. The inclination is to save our favorite characters from being duped. 'Not Fingolfin! Not Nerdanel! Surely not Galadriel....'

But we do need to have Melkor win this one. He has to convince the skeptics and dupe a lot of people, even people we want to be good and reasonable later.

I am more willing to go along with it if I see the direction things are headed in. So, for Fingolfin, it's going to end in the duel in 500 years. Nerdanel might be fooled in the early days, but she'll fight against Melkor's lies and redeem herself.

We need to figure out Galadriel's story. We know where she ends up - rejecting the One Ring when Frodo offers it to her, and choosing to go to Valinor after the power of the Three Rings is ended. But where does she start?

I think that next episode, we need a scene of her with the Teleri, talking about realms in Middle Earth. We know she's not a fan of Fëanor, cause she told him off as a child. But....what else?

Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir are going to go bad more than any others of the Noldor (unless you count Maeglin as Noldor). So, I can see the temptation to lay that at Melkor's feet. But...not quite. Caranthir is extremely proud and rather keeps to himself. He's not a team player; he's a loner. He turns off the dwarves and the men under Haleth and the Sindar and his half-cousins the sons of Finarfin. When he forms alliances, his allies betray him. So...why can't Caranthir make friends with anyone? Is that going to be Melkor's fault? I think...that's not a helpful approach here.

Celegorm doesn't do anything *particularly* bad (I mean, any more bad than all of the Fëanoreans) until he meets Lúthien. Everyone who meets Lúthien falls for her, and her good friend Daeron is willing to betray her over Beren. So....sure, he shouldn't have done what he did. Courting by locking people up tends to go badly. And that's the point where Huan abandons him (not during the Kinslaying). How would listening to Melkor early on play into that, though? Is Melkor going to say something that suggests he should just take things because he wants them and we're going to see that play out 400 years later?

Curufin is the brains behind Celegorm's take-over of Nargothrond, and he does lose his son's allegiance over this (well, according to Christopher Tolkien, anyway!) He's the most at fault, because his actions are calculated, and he leaves Finrod to die. He also has his father's gift for oratory, and talking a bunch of people into a terrible idea does sound rather Melkor-like. But...he's most like his father. Why would he give Melkor the time of day?

If anything, I can see these three sneering at Melkor in Valinor, as a washed-up has-been who needs his clever words to cover his lack of talent (or some such).

 

[Marielle]

But we do need to have Melkor win this one. He has to convince the skeptics and dupe a lot of people, even people we want to be good and reasonable later.

I completely agree. Not just because we need to set Melkor up as a credible villain, but because we need to give these characters we love stories: and that means letting them make mistakes, and learn and grow. Fingolfin being a dupe diminishes him, but only temporarily. His staunchness and goodness later will be virtues hard won from his foolishness before.

As much as I dislike what PJ and crew did with Aragorn in the films, I understand the impulse behind it; they wanted to give him a story arch, to change as the story progressed. Why they chose to do a coming of age, "accepting your destiny" story line instead of the one actually present in the books... *attempts desperately to contain rant*

We need to figure out Galadriel's story. We know where she ends up - rejecting the One Ring when Frodo offers it to her, and choosing to go to Valinor after the power of the Three Rings is ended. But where does she start?

I'd argue strongly that her storyline shouldn't be Galadriel 3.0 from Unfinished Tales. I've always found that the most boring, and frankly insipid, version of her character, and doesn't fit into the character we see in LotR.

I think she's rich with possibilities for be a dupe of Melkor. Maybe not liking him much, personally, as she doesn't like her uncle, but if he says something in her hearing like "I see now where I erred: I loved too well the lands my brethren had left behind, and sought to care for and govern over them, and in that care I became possessive and greedy." -- she might find in that a kernel of an idea she quite likes. Remember, Feanor is going to parrot Melkor's words even while loathing him: I think the idea of ruling "realms of their own" has to come from Melkor. And that, as I see it, is the central temptation that Galadriel is going to face throughout her career in Middle Earth.

Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir are going to go bad more than any others of the Noldor (unless you count Maeglin as Noldor). So, I can see the temptation to lay that at Melkor's feet. But...not quite. Caranthir is extremely proud and rather keeps to himself. He's not a team player; he's a loner. He turns off the dwarves and the men under Haleth and the Sindar and his half-cousins the sons of Finarfin. When he forms alliances, his allies betray him. So...why can't Caranthir make friends with anyone? Is that going to be Melkor's fault? I think...that's not a helpful approach here.

Celegorm doesn't do anything *particularly* bad (I mean, any more bad than all of the Fëanoreans) until he meets Lúthien. Everyone who meets Lúthien falls for her, and her good friend Daeron is willing to betray her over Beren. So....sure, he shouldn't have done what he did. Courting by locking people up tends to go badly. And that's the point where Huan abandons him (not during the Kinslaying). How would listening to Melkor early on play into that, though? Is Melkor going to say something that suggests he should just take things because he wants them and we're going to see that play out 400 years later?

Curufin is the brains behind Celegorm's take-over of Nargothrond, and he does lose his son's allegiance over this (well, according to Christopher Tolkien, anyway!) He's the most at fault, because his actions are calculated, and he leaves Finrod to die. He also has his father's gift for oratory, and talking a bunch of people into a terrible idea does sound rather Melkor-like. But...he's most like his father. Why would he give Melkor the time of day?

If anything, I can see these three sneering at Melkor in Valinor, as a washed-up has-been who needs his clever words to cover his lack of talent (or some such).

I'd agree. I really think they all-but worship their father, and don't have much time for anybody else. They'll see their father as superior to everyone, Melkor included. Maybe they can be as devoted, and in a similar way, to Feanor as the Balrogs were to Melkor in season 1?

 

[MithLuin]

I'd agree. I really think they all-but worship their father, and don't have much time for anybody else. They'll see their father as superior to everyone, Melkor included. Maybe they can be as devoted, and in a similar way, to Feanor as the Balrogs were to Melkor in season 1?

Oh, YES. Soooo much this. That doesn't mean we can't do something with Fëanor's paranoia. But I agree that his sons are 100% on board with everything until we get to Middle Earth. Then Maedhros and the twins...have some second thoughts.

 

[Marielle]

Oh, YES. Soooo much this. That doesn't mean we can't do something with Fëanor's paranoia. But I agree that his sons are 100% on board with everything until we get to Middle Earth. Then Maedhros and the twins...have some second thoughts.

Exactly. After all, Feanor is supposed to be rather amazing, skilled, handsome, and charismatic. Don't have the text in front of me, but I remember a line that his seven sons "at once leapt up" to take the Oath, or something like. The Kinslaying should give (some of) them pause, but they'll rationalize it away ("if only they hadn't" whatever) until the Burning of the Ships.

Of course, we can -- and probably should -- do something with Feanor's paranoia. Not foaming-at-the-mouth "what are you doing in the same room as him, you're no son of mine!".... but something.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Let's not forget, that one of the things we were setting up with Melkor and the Balrogs (which should be a metal band) was Feanor and his sons.

 

[MithLuin]

As far as the Maiar go, I want to know what Eönwë thinks of Melkor during all of this.

 

[Marielle]

Oh. Ouch. I had forgotten about that...

I don't think he'd speak against Manwe, but I doubt he's happy about this situation.'

Did we have him leave Lorien before the War to Begin all Wars, or could we have him still there, recovering?

 

[Haakon]

Oh he came back and fought in the War.