Session 2.14 for S2E10

Questions for next time:
  • How do we handle Finwë? What is his relationship with the Valar? What does Indis think about him unkinging himself?
  • What is Formenos like? Is Nerdanel there? What happens there?
  • Melkor's conversation with Fëanor - details?
  • What do we show of the Valar's viewpoint? Or do we keep to the Noldor's perspective? This is when the Valar figure out that Melkor is up to no good - how is this shown?
 
I called Corey Peter Jackson at one point :p

But... as a middle child, I resembled a lot what he was saying. I *really* don't want to make Fingolfin either a brat or an insecure teen (or films!Faramir, ugh), but we do need to give him an arch, I suppose.
 
His later character should still be recognizable/discernible to viewers. He can do a complete change, but I think it would be better if we showed the germ of the later Super Awesome Fingolfin in his less impressive version in this episode. There have to be hints, even if some whininess is over-shining the later fearless leader. I'm not really comfortable with turning Fingolfin into Neville Longbottom, but even he had the fortitude to 'stand up to his friends' in the first book.

I have not watched any of the 'Godfather' films, but it is my understanding that the main characters start out as fairly unassuming non-murderers before working their way up to vicious crime bosses?

[I am also reminded of the character arc for Jeremiah Gottwald in Code Geass, but that is over-the-top in *all* ways, and likely not helpful. He begins as a high-ranking villain soldier, commander-on-the-front-lines type, very proud, somewhat obnoxious, racist, and ambitious. He is quickly disgraced and defeated, seemingly left pathetic and mad. He undergoes a transformation, and comes back a zillion times more badass. He also undergoes an apparent loyalty shift, so when he is working *for* the protagonist instead of against him, his actions appear much more awesome to the viewers. He embodies loyalty in a show with a lot of backstabbing. He is easily one of the most popular characters, but no one would have guessed that after watching the first half of the first season!]

Jeremiah goes from this:

To this:



If we are going through with this, though, then Fingolfin will seriously have to Take a Level in Badass after this episode!
 
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I can solve the problem the hosts made the change quite easily by doing what Tolkien did, not playing coy with Melkor's role in the situation. If we know that Melkor's lies and deceit are driving the conflict, we don't need to Faramir-ize Fingolfin.
 
As to having a story arc, the arc is the brothers go from at each others' throats (literally) to Fingolfin accepting Feanor's leadership in an act of humility, and then Feanor betraying him.
 
But even with Melkor driving it - *what* exactly is he driving? We have him talking to Fingolfin, and we have Fëanor not giving him the time of day (but responding quite readily to ideas that get back to him). So...what is it that Melkor is getting the brothers to do?

It's not the playing coy part that is hampering us. It's that we need specific things to set off the conflict and turn the cold war...hot.

And...that's going to mean that Fingolfin takes the first step. We can rescue him and not let him get too petty, but...he still has to do *something*. They don't just get at each others' throats. This isn't a case of someone telling a 'yo mamma' joke and instigating a fight for no reason. This is a building conflict that has specific actions and stages to it - there is a *reason* they are fighting.


And so if it's not Fingolfin getting fed up with his 'perfect yet insufferable' older brother...what is the basis?
 
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We decided to have Melkor speak directly to Fingolfin. In the book, Fingolfin hears the rumors Melkor spreads from people he trusts, as does Feanor.

Feanor then starts going around badmouthing the Valar (another thing we're changing). Finwe then calls his nobles together to discuss what to do about all this. Fingolfin expresses concern about Feanor's behavior and how he is stirring up the Noldor against the Valar ( and possibly against Finwe). Feanor walks in, finds what he thinks is confirmation of the rumors he has been hearing as his half-brother is speaking against him to his father. The confrontation doesn't take place in a vacuum even in the published story. It is the result of a smear campaign by Melkor.
 
Okay. I think we can do this without making Fingolfin a whiny teenager. After all, he has adult children himself at this point.



Beat one: Fëanor is obnoxious and insufferable...because of course he is. We show him saying or doing something that is very dismissive of his younger half-brothers. It could be as simple as one of his sons saying, "So, when are we going to visit our cousins?" and Fëanor responding, "You mean your half-cousins? You know I am my parents' only child." or "Neither of them has ever made anything that was worth any notice - it's as if they aren't even really Noldor." or something like that. Fingolfin either overhears this directly, or his children complain to him of their uncle being an insufferable jerk. We see that Fingolfin has done a lot of putting up with and suffering in silence through these slights throughout his entire life.

Beat two: We show anti-Indis gossip in Tirion. Melkor is clearly involved in this in some way, but it doesn't seem to come from him. If he does say it directly, it is to repeat it (reluctantly) to Fingolfin, but better it just be 'word-on-the-street'. The point of this is to show that Fëanor is not the only one who is dismissive of Indis' children, and that Fëanor's slights will find a ready audience for repeating them.

Beat three: Melkor-the-fortune-teller calls out Fingolfin as a king, or even heir of Finwë (High King of the Noldor). When word of this reaches Fëanor (via Caranthir), he retaliates in some way (refuses to see/speak/visit with him?).

Beat four: Fingolfin has had enough. He ignores his mother's advice to continue placating Fëanor, and starts telling people how he really feels about the idiotic behavior of his older (half-)brother. Finarfin urges peace, and Fingolfin retorts with something along the lines of, 'What has that ever gotten us?'

Beat five: Melkor lets slip about the Second Children. This news sends a wave through the Noldor community and is *the* news. Fëanor reacts badly. Fingolfin attempts to be the voice of reason. Fëanor does not flat-out blame or accuse the Valar of anything, but certainly insinuates that trusting them to be fully honest is a mistake. Fingolfin defends the Valar. These conversations are separate; they aren't talking to each other.

Beat six: Fingolfin and Fëanor have an argument-by-proxy with each other about the Valar and the Second Children. It is clear that they are fighting about this because they are really fighting about their family. Finarfin as proxy?

Beat seven: Fëanor, in full on paranoia mode, denounces his half-brothers as usurpers, sycophants, idiots, leeches, and whatever other derogatory thing he can think of. Thanks to his sons, these thoughts are not kept private, but are very much the gossip of Tirion. Responses are put into Fingolfin's mouth, and find their way back to Fëanor. Melkor, of course, is sitting back and watching the show and playing telephone to twist what is said even more - there's a grain of truth in all of it, but it's so easy to make it much worse than it is, and since they aren't talking to each other - no way to uncover the truth.

Beat eight: Fingolfin, having had enough, seeks out Finwë in a private audience to call him on doing nothing while his sons fight publicly. Finarfin does not go with him, but word reaches Fëanor that his brothers have gone to the palace. He shows up in full on regalia, and accuses Fingolfin of carrying lies to their father behind his back.

Beat nine: Fëanor draws his sword on Fingolfin after he leaves the audience with their father.

Beat ten: Fingolfin leaves without saying anything and speaks with Finarfin about this latest over-the-top insult. Something is said about 'Why must everything Fëanor does be taken to such extremes?'

Beat eleven: The Valar exile Fëanor from Tirion, announcing this through Eönwë.


Does that work?
 
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Fantastic! I think this really works.

One thing - why is everyone so against Finwë summoning his sons and lords when the unrest grows? Is there any reason to make him even less active than in the book?
 
Agreed.

Tying this with the casting threads, what actors have we decided on to do these scenes best? For example, I've imagined Tom Hiddleston as Fingolfin.
 
I think I can accept angry Fingolfin a lot more readily than whiny Fingolfin.

As to the sword-drawing scene, I do agree with Haakon here. In fact, what if Finwë summons them all specifically to resolve the issues between his sons publicly. As such, he could even blame himself for the resulting explosion.

That would certainly give Finwë motivation to join Fëanor in exile. Publicly, he might portray it as "if you don't want Fëanor, you don't want me," but in his heart, he blames himself for (as he thinks) creating the situation.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
I think I can accept angry Fingolfin a lot more readily than whiny Fingolfin.
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YES. 1525% yes!

It's actually quite believable: I'm sure it would take a saint to put up with our angsty Feanor as an older sibling, and Fingolfin isn't there yet.

It's a fine line to draw, but I think we can depict Fingolfin as less "but I wanna be special to Dad, too!" a la film Faramir, and more "can my brother get any more dismissive? How much of this do I have to take?!" If we go this route, I like the idea of Indis continuing to advocate pity and restraint, and Finarfin listening, but Fingolfin not.

I love Fingolfin, don't get me wrong, but even in his end he's more than a bit headstrong and foolish. Seems we have an obligation for that not to come out of nowhere.
 
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Haakon said:
One thing - why is everyone so against Finwë summoning his sons and lords when the unrest grows? Is there any reason to make him even less active than in the book?
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I am not against it, per se, but it should be clear to the audience that Finwë, as the king and their father, let this all go on for too long without intervening.

And since Finarfin is not there, it might seem odd that he summoned only 2 of his sons to this meeting, and very odd that Fëanor walks into a planned meeting and acts surprised that his brother is there. We understand that Fëanor is already angry/paranoid, but *why* would Fëanor react so badly to a scheduled summons?
 
Well, since Finarfin might not be the one causing the problem, that might explain why he's not there. As to Feanor, I don't think he's acting surprised that Fingolfin is there. I think it's that Fingolfin is speaking against him that is his issue. Up until now, he only suspected that Fingolfin was "against" him. Now he _knows_.
 
There could be a number of reasons for Finarfin being absent. He could be on Tol Eressëa. He could take his good time and be very late.
And yes, Fëanor isn't surprised that Fingolfin is there, but he reacts to the fact that his brother is conferring with his father in private before what's supposed to be a kind of semi formal hearing.
 
I hear you - there are ways to solve that issue in the storytelling, but I just wanted to make sure we're all clear that it is an issue. One solution is to ignore the text of the published Silmarillion and put Finarfin at that meeting, but I don't see a reason to do that.

By the by, is anyone living on Tol Eressëa at this time? I would think it's completely abandoned, as the Teleri have moved to Alqualondë.
 
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