Session 2.15 for S2E11

I don't think we need draw too many parallels about the 'cult' status of Feanor. Granted, some of the followers of Feanor probably have crossed the line from follower to fanatic, but we have to remember that Finwe is there as well. And to many of the Noldor, we can assume that they see him as their King and Feanor, being the oldest son, is speaking for the King. So for a significant number of Noldor at Formenos (and probably at Tirion) are truly convinced that they are doing the King's bidding.
 
I just have to point out that Fëanor not being warned Melkor is on the lamb is a construction we have made. Fëanor's words to Melkor, calling him the "jailcrow of Mandos" certainly seems to indicate knowledge of Melkor's fugitive status. He simply doesn't care.

As to the Valar being told to stay away, that doesn't seem to stop them from summoning him when the 12 year period ends, so they clearly wouldn't take it all that seriously, and since he goes along with it, neither would he.
 
*offtopic*

For anyone who is curious to learn more about Jonestown, I would recommend the following resources. The Peoples Temple recorded a lot of their meetings on tapes (including the final one), so figuring out what was said and how the group dynamics worked is possible. But of course, the subject matter is not...pleasant.

Documentary: Jonestown: The Life and Death of Peoples Temple
transcript: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/transcript/jonestown-transcript/

San Diego State University's Jonestown Institute has a good archive:
http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/
Including the Audiotapes collected by the FBI:
http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=27280

Bucknell's Griot Institute did a Lecture Series entitled "Jonestown Reconsidered" for the 35th anniversary, and it is quite informative:
http://www.bucknell.edu/Jonestown35
These presentations were all recorded and viewable online, but I'm not sure where to find them now.



...but actually I don't really recommend learning more about Jonestown. It's very horrible and depressing. Considering that the mass death was planned, well in advance, and the people dying didn't really figure that out, it's difficult for me to consider it a 'mass suicide.' It's mass murder, with a lot of coercion used to induce people to kill themselves.


I brought it up mostly because of the isolation factor and bunker mentality we are developing at Formenos. Sure, it's not putting all of your followers on planes overnight and disappearing to the jungles of Guyana and then preventing outside news from reaching them. But....it is headed in that direction.
 
Maybe the way to go is that the Valar have told them everything, including the fact that they haven't been able to find Melkor and after 12 years, the elves and the Valar have become complacent. Unless there's been constant Melkor sightings, it would be difficult to maintain a sense of urgency. We would either need to establish that Melkor has one heck of a good hiding place (did he return to Middle Earth for some of that time?), or that he used his Valar powers to become effectively invisible to everyone, including the other Valar (maybe this is is last true display of the power of the Valar that he can accomplish).

This is also how we could bring Huan into the tale, with Huan, or his sire, helping in the search for Melkor.
 
12 years of the Trees is closer to 120 years of the Sun, so I hear what you are saying about complacency....


...but at the same time, 12 years to the Valar would just be a short blip. I can't see them losing any of their vigilance is so short a time.


It's hard to strike the right balance.
 
I don't think the jailcrow comment has to indicate knowledge of Melkor's fugitive status, necessarily. It could just mean that he thinks Melkor should never have been released.
 
Ok just turning stuff around a bit...

What if the Valar tell the Noldor that they understand Melkor's talk has triggered the unrest of the Noldor. They also say they will question him. This does not prevent them from banishing Fëanor. He's still crossed the line.

This does not necessarily imply that the Noldor understand that Melkor has had a master plan all along. When Melkor shows up at Formenos Fëanor will know he isn't in favour but not to which extent.
 
And Manwë was grieved, but he watched and said no word. The Valar had brought the Eldar to their land freely, to dwell or to depart; and though they might judge departure to be folly, they might not restrain them from it. But now the deeds of Fëanor could not be passed over, and the Valar were angered and dismayed; and he was summoned to appear before them at the gates of Valmar, to answer for all his words and deeds. There also were summoned all others who had any part in this matter, or any knowledge of it; and Fëanor standing before Mandos in the Ring of Doom was commanded to answer all that was asked of him. Then at last the root was laid bare, and the malice of Melkor revealed; and straightway Tulkas left the council to lay hands upon him and bring him again to judgement. But Fëanor was not held guiltless, for he it was that had broken the peace of Valinor and drawn his sword upon his kinsman; and Mandos said to him: ‘Thou speakest of thraldom. If thraldom it be, thou canst not escape it: for Manwë is King of Arda, and not of Aman only. And this deed was unlawful, whether in Aman or not in Aman. Therefore this doom is now made: for twelve years thou shalt leave Tirion where this threat was uttered. In that time take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. But after that time this matter shall be set in peace and held redressed, if others will release thee.’ Then Fingolfin said: ‘I will release my brother.’ But Fëanor spoke no word in answer, standing silent before the Valar. Then he turned and left the council, and departed from Valmar.
 
Ok, reasons for the above quote:

1) The "... malice of Melkor [is] revealed... " in the presence of Fëanor, Fingolfin, and everyone else involved.

2) The elves know good and well what is happening here.


Once again, the problems we are having are of our own making and the further back the Melkor is evil reveal is pushed, the further we get from the published narrative.
 
We still have to explain how Melkor evaded the Valar for 12 years. Do we have to go back to Season 1 and have a depiction of Melkor making secret redoubts throughout Middle Earth and when the lamps shattered the lands, one of those secret places happens to be in the south of what became Valinor? I don't think we want this to be like The Fugitive with Melkor being the One Armed Man and Tulkas being the Richard Kimble who almost catches him over and over again. But we do need to find a way to both keep Melkor away for 12 years but still proximate enough to be a menace.

I still think that 'life with Melkor on the run' rapidly becomes the 'new norm' for the Elves and doesn't generate as much buzz in year 12 as it did during the first few years. In fact, I think that the Noldor become more fixated on the results of what happened rather than the root cause over those 12 years, thus building up that resentment, especially in Formenos.
 
I think we can show one scene where Melkor evades Tulkas by "disembodying" and use that as an explanation. It could even take him 60 years or so to coalesce again. A weakened state might explain why he takes such insolence from Fëanor.
 
Question: When does Melkor approach Fëanor at Formenos?
Let's say it is after a relatively short period of time, perhaps two or three years (of the Trees). This will mean that the shadow effect Melkor causes initially when he's on the run is gone after the same relatively short time and there's no sign of Melkor whatsoever for almost ten years of the Trees. Perhaps we can make that first period even shorter (as long as it is made plausible that there's enough time to build Formenos). We then put some time between Melkor's visit to Formenos and the feast and the Darkening. The Valar could assume he's gone to some dark place outside of Arda perhaps.
 
That's another possibility. Maybe they even find evidence that he's left after the Formenos. Like a "crack" in the Walls of Night.
 
Perhaps this is how we introduce Ungoliant. The Valar come to Walls of Night (which I envision much like the Wall in Game of Thrones except out of dark featureless rock {maybe obsidian}) and see a 'hole' of darkness in the wall that even their eyes can't penetrate and think that this is the 'hole' in the Walls of Night that Melkor escaped through. However, we discover that the 'hole' is actually the webs of Unlight that Ungoliant has woven, at the behest of Melkor,
 
Perhaps this is how we introduce Ungoliant. The Valar come to Walls of Night (which I envision much like the Wall in Game of Thrones except out of dark featureless rock {maybe obsidian}) and see a 'hole' of darkness in the wall that even their eyes can't penetrate and think that this is the 'hole' in the Walls of Night that Melkor escaped through. However, we discover that the 'hole' is actually the webs of Unlight that Ungoliant has woven, at the behest of Melkor,


I'm a little hazy on the timeline here. So you're saying that Melkor visits Feanor, then hobnobs with Ungoliant and gets her to help him escape through the wall of night, where they bide their time until the opportune moment to kill the Trees? Maybe have their encounter happens at the end of episode 11 (in the tag without dialogue) and the crack in the wall of night is revealed at the beginning of episode 12?
 
Does our show have a Wall of Night? We've tried to avoid even letting the audience know that the world is flat at this point. We haven't shown anything to give that away.

Also, isn't Ungoliant in the Pelori?
 
I don't think we have to show a flat earth to show the Walls of Night in some way.

Also, I don't see why having Melkor encounter Ungoliant in the Pelori and go somewhere else with her is a problem.
 
Sorry, I wasn't as clear as I wanted to be. My timeline would be: Melkor is 'discovered'. Melkor flees. Valar pursue to the Walls of Night where they see the 'hole' in the Wall and assume that this is where Melkor fled to. Valar set up a guard around the 'hole' to ensure that if Melkor returns, they know about it. Valinor relaxes their vigilance. Melkor never went through the 'hole', but used it as a ruse to escape to the south, where he is with Ungoliant, protected from detection by her webs of Unlight. From there, Melkor makes forays out into Valinor to observe what is going on and to meet with his 'spies' and eventually to meet with Feanor.

It isn't until much later that the Valar discover that the 'hole' is actually a web of Unlight and realize that they've been duped again. But by then, it is too late.
 
Oh, I was just confused why there was an Ungoliant-shaped-hole in the Wall of Night when I thought she was living in Avathar (the Pelori in the far south of Valinor). I agree the two of them can travel together, but if secrecy is the goal, staying put in her secret lair makes more sense.
 
Back
Top