Session 2.16 for S2E12

Men will appear for the first time in Season 4, so we can certainly revisit the question later. Who knows, we might have an opportunity for some way of working their pre-Beleriand history in, even if it's only some disjointed-memory-flashback scene.

We will have to introduce Dwarves in Season 3, so by the time we get to Men, it will be like, okay, we've introduced a bunch of other sentient races already, what makes these guys different?
 
Our finale will be very villain-centric.

Melkor and Ungoliant destroy the Trees without any attempted interference from the Valar. No one notices they are there until it is too late. And so, the Trees can't really be right outside the door of Valmar, or it's going to seem silly that no one was able to come check this out as soon as the Trees started dimming.

Of course, once they *do* notice, everyone rushes to Ezellohar, and there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Meanwhile, Melkor and Ungoliant (covered in darkness) go to Formenos. Everyone in Formenos either flees or hides themselves. The *only* one to stand up to Melkor in the darkness is Finwë...and of course he's immediately killed. We should make the most of that confrontation, since it's all we'll have of the good guys challenging the bad guys. Tulkas beating the air uselessly as the shadows prove too much for him will be...less than satisfying.

Melkor plunders the vault at Formenos, taking the silmarils and destroying any stray palantiri lying around.

The request for Fëanor to break the silmarils to restore the Trees should have plenty of dramatic tension, but again, this is like the *one* thing that the good guys do, and while they are ignorant of the attack on Formenos, the audience probably isn't.

We do get a messenger arriving from Formenos with the news of Finwë's death. Who is it? We do have to have Fëanor flee out into the darkness alone after getting that news, but I understand the desire not to make that be our last glimpse of Fëanor this season.

What is Ulmo doing during all of this? We know what Tulkas, Nienna, Yavanna and Aulë are up to, and Manwë and Varda should be taking a step back (to reveal their thoughts next season). But...what about Ulmo? He's been Melkor's primary foe for some time, and the Darkening seems like something he should react to.

The initial idea, when the season was first plotted out, was to end Melkor's actions here with the Thieves' Quarrel: his hand being burned by the silmarils, Ungoliant turning on him, and the balrogs coming to his rescue (to bring back that storyline from the first half of the season). It is, of course, possible to reconsider that. We could save all of that for the first episode of Season 3, to juxtapose with what is happening in Tirion and establish Morgoth as the primary villain in Middle Earth rather than re-introducing him already in Angband. If we chose to do that, this season would end with Melkor and Ungoliant escaping into the darkness, and no one knowing where they're going or what they plan to do.

Season 2 has been an introduction to the elves. So, regardless of where we end Melkor's storyline, we should come back to the elves at the end, I think (see Marielle's suggestion above). But other than Finwë, they've all been remarkably passive throughout this episode. So.....it makes it very difficult to 'wrap up' any sort of story with the elves. I'm very clear on what Melkor is up to in this episode, and I know how at least some of the characters are reacting to his actions here. But...what story are we trying to tell with this finale?
 
After listening to the most recent session again, I'm finding myself confused. Did they decide on exposition for the Valar side of the story in episode 12? Or flashback? Or just turning the clock back? I'm not sure what direction we're supposed to take that.
 
Yeah, I listened to the podcast and wasn't sure. My initial impression was that we join with the Valar 'real time', but that we deal with what's happened in the previous years as both exposition and limited flashbacks. It was confusing and, as Prof. Olson noted, sometimes the amount of time that we're talking about gets neglected. It sounds weak, but if we got with Tulkas and Orome meeting and one saying to the other, "It's been years since we last heard of Melkor, perhaps he's gone." "Plotting some form of mischief, I have no doubt." Or something like that.

I think the dilemma of no one noticing the dimming of the trees might be related to the Feast itself. Perhaps we establish that the Feast is lit in splendor (with Feanorian Lamps, of course) so no one really notices that the skies are getting darker around them. Two ways of revealing (potentially) the Darkening: Huan, with his doggy senses, notices that even with the lamps, it's getting darker and calls it to everyone's attention, or there is a part of the Feast when the Lamps are dimmed so that everyone can bask in the light of the Trees, and as they dim the Lamps, it just keeps getting dimmer and dimmer and dimmer and everyone at the Feast reacts.

I think that one of the mysteries of this moment is where does Feanor go and what does he do when he runs off after hearing of his father? I would like to propose that he meets with Nerdanel and they talk, with Nerdanel, at first, offering her sincere sympathies but is alarmed at the anti-Valar rhetoric that Feanor is mumbling through his tears. So Nerdanel emphasizes that Feanor is now the King, and must act as a King would and bring the people together to meet the challenges that are now revealed. Feanor hears this in a totally different way and proclaims, "Yes, I am King, and I must lead my people to the vengeance that we now so richly deserve!" or something like that. This totally appalls Nerdanel (and cements her later action of not supporting Feanor) and shows Feanor reaching that tipping point of making THE speech.
 
MithLuin is right that this is going to be a largely villain-centric episode, and I would vote for leaving as many questions about what the good guys are going to do as possible: let the audience, as well as the Noldor masses, have no idea what to do, or what the Valar or Feanor is going to do (a large part of the reason I suggested no words be said in my proposed closing). I really think that "what is Feanor going to do?" is a good place to leave our audience until next Season. I also want Feanor to be (self) isolated after he learns of his father's death, not looking for or accepting anyone's comfort or advice.

You know, I've never before this moment thought about who brought word to Valmar about Finwe's death before? We could, to show confusion and suggest time passing, have Feanor sends some of his sons to "secure" Formenos as soon as the Darkening happens (because he's totally self-centered and paranoid enough to assume he's the next target) and they return soon after he refuses to give up the Silmarils. Having Maedros/Maglor/some of the nicer sons miss their father's refusal to give them up to save the Trees could place some of them in the situation of not really understanding how far he's gone in love for them when they swear the Oath.

I would rather have the Thieves' Quarrel in this episode, if only because Morgoth returning to his throne in Angband would set up the appropriately ominous parallel to Feanor sitting on his father's throne.

Question: am I misremembering, or did we do a 2-hour season finale last time? If so, we have more episode time to play with, as I'd advocate doing the same this season.
 
Season Finale Outline from Season 1 attached. IIRC, we decided on just 1 hour, though a 2 hour finale was considered.

I think that Fëanor's sons would be powerful messengers to break the news of Finwë's death. I also want to see Fëanor flee in complete devastation. He's not ready to make angry speeches against the Valar. He's completely gutted by the news of his father's death, and by that I mean he should look like someone has sliced him open and he'll fall over dead in a moment. It's a pain-so-bad-you-can't-even-scream moment for him.

Of course, it's news of Finwë's death AND the theft of the silmarils - it's a double-whammy, all his worst fears come true, etc. But we can't lose sight of the fact that Fëanor has just become an orphan in a land of immortals where no one ever dies. It's not like they know the first thing about dealing with such grief, and he is utterly ALONE.

Sometime between running off into the darkness and returning to Tirion, he does find some fortifying anger. But that's not where he starts.
 

Attachments

  • SFP_S1E13.pdf
    164.2 KB · Views: 3
MithLuin said:
Season Finale Outline from Season 1 attached. IIRC, we decided on just 1 hour, though a 2 hour finale was considered.

I think that Fëanor's sons would be powerful messengers to break the news of Finwë's death. I also want to see Fëanor flee in complete devastation. He's not ready to make angry speeches against the Valar. He's completely gutted by the news of his father's death, and by that I mean he should look like someone has sliced him open and he'll fall over dead in a moment. It's a pain-so-bad-you-can't-even-scream moment for him.

Of course, it's news of Finwë's death AND the theft of the silmarils - it's a double-whammy, all his worst fears come true, etc. But we can't lose sight of the fact that Fëanor has just become an orphan in a land of immortals where no one ever dies. It's not like they know the first thing about dealing with such grief, and he is utterly ALONE.

Sometime between running off into the darkness and returning to Tirion, he does find some fortifying anger. But that's not where he starts.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the attachment!

Also, I completely agree about Feanor. At work, don't have the text in front of me, but I remember a line that goes something like "and was any father better loved by a son?" than Finwe by Feanor? And it's made clear, at least to my reading, that Feanor is more upset that Finwe is dead than that the Silmarils are taken: certainly his "if only I had been there!" sentiments are in regards to his father, not the jewels.

I don't think, however, that we show Feanor in between Valmar and Tirion. If I had my druthers, he'd run off, and then we'd cut to the villains' storyline, only returning to Feanor when he arrives in Tirion. I fear anything we'd do to try to convey his grieving/thought process would reduce it.
 
I think not. Though that could be a powerful moment, we don't have a named character to spare, and it wouldn't be that impressive with a red-shirt... also, why would there be a guard? No one's expecting trouble.

Unless... we do have someone like Mahtan or Rumil we could, in theory, kill off. Can you imagine, killing both of Maedros' grandpas in one episode?

But why would they be there?
 
I would like to preserve the dialogue where Fëanor claims that breaking the silmarils to renew the Trees will kill him, making him the first to be slain in Aman....and Mandos replies, "Not the first."

That is more powerful as a reference to Finwë than to 'random guy Melkor and Ungoliant cut down on their way to the Trees'.

Don't get me wrong, Melkor would have no qualms about killing any random elf or maia that got in his way as he bounds down from the Pelori...I am just suggesting they meet no resistance rather than kill the resistance they do meet. I don't think there is any need for a 'gateman rode down by Black Riders' scene here.

Considering Daurin/Torin was meant to be a kinsman of Fëanor, I think the death of Finwë in Formenos covers this role from the Lost Tales.
 
Yes! Gots to have me some Mandos' cryptic proclamations of doom!

Although the 'Not the first' could refer to some random elf who happened to be tying his or her shoe in front of Trees at the wrong moment, it has a powerful resonance for everyone when the realization is that Mandos is referring to Finwe... and adds a 'big picture' clarity to Feanor's dramatic moment (although none realize it at the time). It also reminds the audience that Mandos has access to information that others don't. And even though he doesn't share that information, it would still be wise to listen to him (i.e. when he pronounces the Doom of Mandos).
 
So, bear in mind here that we are drifting towards the climax of the episode being the revelation of Finwe's death rather than the destruction of the Trees of Valinor. I'm not completely sure how that is avoidable, but it should be mentioned nonetheless.
 
How about the last shot of the season beeing the final dimming of the light to absolute darkness. We could maintain a gradual dimming after the attack on the trees.

So, no matter what the Last Scene is - Valar standing speechless next to the dying trees, beloved characters like Fingolfin watching the sky, Feanor sitting on the Kings throne - we could switch through a close up on their faces, where we observe the last rays of light disapear to complete utter darkness. The End.
 
Oh, that really is a brilliant suggestion, and fits in nicely with other ideas that were mentioned early.

The emphasis will be on the death of the Trees, which it should be, while the various montages hint at the repercussions of the death of the Trees (not cliffhangers or spoilers, but definite indications at where things are going in the next season). I think the season closing with the that haunting image of the slowly dying light of the Trees brings a perfect end to the season.

Personally, I like the idea of one of the (if not THE) final image being Feanor in the Throne Room (alone), holding his father's crown with tears running down his face and slowly looking up so that we see the light of the Trees dying on his face, but we also see a growing fire in his eyes. If we could pull that off without it being too hokey, I would be happy.
 
OK, here's what came to my head during the episode, and reading this thread.

The idea of "line of succession" as applied to immortal beings.

Do the Vanyar have a formal set of rules for how the kingship passes on? They've literally only had one king for the entirety of history, and without looking down the hill toward Tirion, would have no conception of that ever even being possible to change.

Even the Teleri have ostensibly only had 3 rulers in all of history (just 2 in PubSil), Elwe, Olwe, and whoever we have take over from Olwe post Kinslaying (unless either Elwe or Olwe return from Mandos and resume their position).

At the point of Kinstrife, the Noldor have also only had one king ever. And to real reason to expect that to ever change. So why would they even really be thinking about succession, and who is next in line to be king? Maybe at first the complaint of Feanor is strictly about his perception of where his father's love is being spent. Only after the whispers of Melkor does Feanor shift his complaint from a family issue to a rulership issue.

ETA: By this I mean that the entire notion of "next in line to be king" as a status that matters originates from Melkor. The notion that there is a line, and that one's position in that line can advance. It's one of those things Melkor can say that stirs up trouble while being 100% true (not even half true, or technically true - it's genuinely 100% true).
 
Last edited:
Alternatively, instead of focusing on the idea of succession, we could keep the attention on the political power that the sons of the King have themselves.

Professor Tolkien gives us our solution in the text, as I find he often does. Fingolfin is concerned not with who will be the next king, but that Feanor is speaking as if he were king now, and he is under the impression that Feanor will attempt to oust him and his brother at some point.

Feanor does not believe that Fingolfin seeks to supplant his position in succession, but his position in his father's heart and in the political structure of the Noldor.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top