Session 2.17 for S2E13

I don't have a big problem with ending the season with the Oath - I think. It works well with the themes of the season.

I still think that Fëanor deciding not to let go of the Silmarils is a nice ending. It's clean and open.

In the first case, I think we need to make e13 longer. In the second, we need to end the season with a longer e12.
In either case, I think we could wait with the Theives' Quarrel. We can juxtapose it with the Kinslaying in s3.
 
If we keep the Thieves' Quarrel in Season 2 Episode 13, then the climax of the episode (and thus of the season) is the revelation that Melkor has stolen the Silmarils. So, Fëanor's decision not to hand them over will be momentous, but still part of the build up to that climax. Ungoliant calling Melkor 'Blackheart' and demanding that he give to her with both hands is where we reveal that he's clutching the silmarils in his hand (left or right? I have to check).

So, IF the episode contains everything that we planned for it to contain, and IF it ends with Melkor and Fëanor on (or in the vicinity) of thrones, then....

Then the Climax of the episode is Melkor's theft of the silmarils.

If we don't want that, if we don't like the story that is told that way, then we will have to shuffle events around and do this differently. If we want Fëanor's denial of Yavanna's request to be the climax of the episode, then....we have to have that event happen within the last 10 minutes of our hour long episode, AND we can't have a momentous fight after that. So...no Thieves' Quarrel, for sure, and question marks all over the 'news from Formenos' and revelation of Finwë's death.

(Oath is in Season 3 no matter what.)
 
That all seems fine to me, when you leave with a cliffhanger (cliff-leaper?) like "Oh snap, are they really going to kill the trees", you kind of have to pay it off with "OH DANG THERE THEY GO" right away and get all that angst and tension people have been building up for a week out and over with.

I'm sort of thinking I would rather have the Thieves Quarrel close out the season. We can still have the shots of the two kings and their crowns. Say Finwe's crown is damaged when he's killed. Feanor takes it upon himself to fix it, maybe make some alterations. Meanwhile in Angband, Melkor is making the Iron Crown and setting the Silmarils in it. This way we don't really need to worry about the timeline, we've got reason enough to wait to have the two crowns being forged.

Edit: I think the Death of Finwe/Theft of the Silmarils is a pretty good climax for the season. Certainly he was a major player all through the beginning of the Season, and he's a big part of the Feanor Show, starring Feanor and the Sons of Feanor... (Feanor).
 
So, let's say we want to have the Thieves' Quarrel in S2E13. Here is probably the only timeline that really makes sense. I don't know how to break this up into Acts for a script (I'm an engineer, not a screenwriter), and the events happening in the same Time Period could happen in either order.

The problem is one of pacing at the end (Return of the King syndrome), as well as exactly where it leaves the main characters.

In all time periods, there are two places where things are happening. Don't know whether to go published LotR and do each one entirely in succession, or to cut back and forth between them.


Time Period 1

Valmar:
Feast of Reconciliation
Attack on the trees​

Formenos:
Nothing significant - could intercut some character piece with Finwe​

Time Period 2

Valmar:
Mourning for the trees (boooring but have to show it)​

Formenos:
Melkor and Ungoliant (M&U) travel to Formenos.
How long does this take? Will it take longer for Elves to travel back and forth later?​

Time Period 3

Formenos:
M&U attack Formenos.
Death of Finwe.
Theft of Silmarils.
M&U head off north.
Messengers start to head toward Valmar.​

Valmar:
Feanor refuses to give up the Silmarils. Talky-talky, no action.​

Time Period 4

Valmar:
Messenger arrives with tidings.
Feanor and other Noldor head toward Formenos​

Helcaraxe:
M&U make their way across the grinding ice.
Have to show clear use of "super special Valar magic powers" to ease and speed the trip, to make sure it's sufficiently grim for the Noldor later.​

Time Period 5

Formenos:
Feanor arrives in Formenos, mourns his father (so do his siblings).
Feanor notices the Silmarils are gone too.
Feanor says things. Ominous things.​

Region of Beleriand soon to be known as Lammoth:
M&U arrive in Beleriand, have Thieves' Quarrel.
Melkor says things. Ominous things.​
 
See, this is why we do the script discussions on video. :) hinthint


I would just say, it's ok, we'll figure it out on Saturday, but I know that not everyone discussing this is able to be there.

Currently, the only way I can see giving the hosts what they asked for without getting more specific calls from them is by setting it up thusly:

Establish celebration is still ongoing.

Attack on the trees.

Valar respond to attack and villains escape. Mourning of the trees.

Oromë and Tulkas hunt the villains unsuccessfully. Oromë sends Tulkas back

Assault on Formenos.

Silmaril solution proposed. Conversation with Fëanor remains unresolved.

Thieves' Quarrel

The Valar ask Fëanor for his decision and is refused.

Messengers/refugees arrive and we cut to Formenos where we reveal Finwë's death and the Silmarils are gone.

Cut to Melkor + Iron Crown, then Fëanor + Finwë's crown
 
Aside - Are those discussions recorded/preserved? I can only *just* barely be around, sometimes, for the Friday morning "main" show moving forward. I definitely can't be around for what I understand is Saturday night discussions(?). Kid, wife, duties, etc. But as I feel my way into this process, working out the level at which I can consistently participate, I do have the capacity to watch/listen to oodles of archived stuff on my own time.

I do have some concern with how the above timeline (or even my own timeline) resolves at the end, especially pacing. Energy-wise, it's kind of dropping off steadily from about the 2/3 point. Unless everything post-Thieves' Quarrel is pretty compressed in time.
 
You'll want to hop over to Nick's YouTube Channel, everything should be there in little bite sized (half hour) chunks.
 
You'll want to hop over to Nick's YouTube Channel, everything should be there in little bite sized (half hour) chunks.

Yeah, the past couple aren't cut up because of an issue YouTube is working on for me, but up until S02E09, everything is there. If you go to YouTube and search "silmfilm script" you should find it easily.
 
Link: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdlP0kk22eTXhMhXTsp_aFw

Yes, these discussions do take place at 7:30 PM EST on Saturday night (so 5:30 PM Calgary time, IIRC). Totally understandable if you can't participate live, but you are more than welcome to listen to these discussions and then add your own comments in the script forums.

There's not much room for shuffling things around.

I meant to shuffle things into Season 3, mostly. I really do NOT like the idea of showing the Thieves' Quarrel *before* Fëanor makes his decision, because it so obviously takes place much, much later. The Valar are standing around looking at dying Trees. Melkor, meanwhile, has apparently sacked Formenos, crossed the Helcaraxë, and gotten into a fight with his erstwhile ally who is much more powerful than she was when they started.
...And the Valar are still standing there? What????
 
See, this is why we do the script discussions on video. :) hinthint


I would just say, it's ok, we'll figure it out on Saturday, but I know that not everyone discussing this is able to be there.

Currently, the only way I can see giving the hosts what they asked for without getting more specific calls from them is by setting it up thusly:

Establish celebration is still ongoing.

Attack on the trees.

Valar respond to attack and villains escape. Mourning of the trees.

Oromë and Tulkas hunt the villains unsuccessfully. Oromë sends Tulkas back

Assault on Formenos.

Silmaril solution proposed. Conversation with Fëanor remains unresolved.

Thieves' Quarrel

The Valar ask Fëanor for his decision and is refused.

Messengers/refugees arrive and we cut to Formenos where we reveal Finwë's death and the Silmarils are gone.

Cut to Melkor + Iron Crown, then Fëanor + Finwë's crown
I'm not comfortable with the Quarrel's place in this.... mainly because of what it does to the death of Finwë.
 
Yes, looking at all of this, moving the Quarrel is the easiest change to make. We can still reveal that Melkor has the Silmarils after Feanor discovers Finwe's death.

We do lose the throne/crown moment, which will be hard to sell. Can we get some consensus on that before I try to fight this one?
 
What if we just drop the thieves quarrel this season. Feanor refuses to give the Silmarils, message from Formenos, Feanor mourning his fathers deaths and discovers that the Silmarils are gone. Feanor takes up the crown and we cut to Melkor in Angband with the Silmarils in the Ironcrown.

Next season begins with the thieves quarrel and the rescue of the balrogs. We now see that the Silmarils are burning him. When Ungoliant has him and he screams we cut to Angband and we're reunited with the bad guys and their powerstruggle. The balrogs win when they come back with Melkor, but Sauron earns his trust and climbs the ladder afterwards.
 
Yes, that works for me.

The only issue I see with that is that we will know the outcome of the Theives' Quarrel - no concern for Melkor being taken down by Ungoliant for the audience.

But realistically, the audience knows that Melkor, not Ungoliant, is the primary antagonist, and that there is no way he's being offed by a friggin spider before anyone in Valinor can even react. So, from that point of view....small loss.
 
If we need a face off at all, we can show Feanor in Formenos and Melkor on the flight cut-to-cut, both watching the sky getting dark. The tension for the quarrel in season 3 will not be undercut this way.

At this occasion I would like to thank the script team for the excellent work and the representations of these comments during the live sessions (Thanks Marie ;)). I unfortunately can not be live due to time shifts in Europe, work and family, but I'm very grateful to participate the second season now this way. Keep going!
 
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There would be a real-life time gap between seasons, so if you think a returning audience is going to buy into the tension of a major action setpiece in the season opener, may I direct you to the face-off between Bard and Smaug at the opening of the Battle of Five Armies.
In other words....having seen a glimpse of 'Melkor Triumphant' at the end of the 2nd Season won't be what is destroying the tension. Just another log on the cheerfully burning fire.


The timeline for Episode 13 would be as follows:

We show the Feast of Reconciliation up on Taniquetal, possibly as a 'view from the outside' rather than being close enough to hear conversations. We then go down to the plain below where we see Melkor and Ungoliant attack the Trees, with the result of the light of the Trees beginning to fade away as Ungoliant's Unlight blocks it. As some waxing and waning is quite normal, no one notices/panics at first...maybe someone comments about how 'oh, already Laurelin fades? I must have lost track of time!' Then...the Light keeps fading. Now, we see the awareness of what has happened kick in and people panic.

We see Melkor and Ungoliant flee the scene as the elves/Valar/Maiar up on Taniquetal rush down to find the damaged, diseased, dying, poisoned, sick Trees. Yavanna touches a branch, and it just breaks off. Nienna weeps (she's going to be doing a lot of that....)

We see the panic of the elves in other places as the Light continues to fade. The Teleri on the shore see the dimming of the Light through the Calacirya, and look up at the stars. The elves of Formenos light a bunch of torches and act quite fearful of the darkness, while Finwë keeps his head and looks south, trying to figure out what happened.

Back to Ezellohar, where people are trying to figure out what to do. ULMO infers Melkor's involvement based on the fact that the Ring of Doom is wrecked - that has his signature all over it, though how he attacked the Trees is *not* clear. How could he have done this? And where is he now?

The Darkness heads north. [Oromë and Tulkas pursue, but are thwarted - beating the air with their hands as they are stuck in Ungoliant's unlight?]

Finwë clearly figures out a threat is coming, and orders everyone present in Formenos to get out. He tells Nerdanel to go to the Valar and fetch his sons - all 3 of them. She asks something like, 'What about you?' and he indicates that he will stay and face the coming storm. [We see...?]

[Return of Tulkas and Oromë with news that Melkor is headed north?] Someone (Varda?) realizes that the Light of the Trees is still contained in the silmarils. Yavanna claims she could rekindle the dying Trees with this. Fëanor panics, realizing that the Valar are discussing the destruction of the silmarils. TULKAS turns to ask Fëanor 'who could deny Yavanna?' and clearly expects him to pull the silmarils out of his pocket right now. Aulë chastises Tulkas for being hasty. Fëanor gives a speech in which he tries to articulate what they are asking of him, and this includes the claim that he will be the first elf slain in Valinor if they demand this of him. Mandos says, 'not the first!' and Fëanor (unnerved) finishes off with the contention that if the Valar FORCE him into this, then he'll know he is truly in a cage.

Nerdanel arrives, with the news that Formenos is under attack and Finwë calls for aid.

Fëanor and his brothers [and Tulkas and Oromë?] rush north, only to find Finwë's body amid the burning wreckage of looted Formenos.

[THIEVES' QUARREL, where it is revealed that Melkor has the silmarils.]

Final ending shots of the last light of the dying (now dead) Trees falling on Fëanor in Formenos, and (possibly) the triumph of Melkor taking the throne in Angband with Gothmog as his right-hand-man is marred by the pain of his burned hand.


So, my two issues are - what is the climax, thieves' quarrel or Fëanor's refusal to give up the silmarils, and....what is Tulkas doing, seriously? How is he at Ezellohar *and* chasing Melkor?
 
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