Tollers
New Member
Well,
I could not resist the pun, but I have been thinking about the great dialog on session 250 (with so much great foundation laid before it from this community) about Sam's comments. (btw, I am perhaps 'cheating' as when I reached Session 100, I started listening forward while I continue to catch-up).
I wanted to post some thoughts and reflections on 250 today.
"Shelter!", muttered Sam. "If this is shelter, then one wall and no roof make a house."
Some of the great discussion points were:
I think on first pass, Sam's comment is hard to accept (standing by itself), and I think this (and perhaps other have as well) because when I think of Sam more abstracted as an archetype, I would describe him aligned with High-hope, the "good" in Gandalf's words for him traveling/being the companion of/with Frodo, and generally as the realistic bridge between myself and the "Others" around him (including Frodo and Oliphaunts). In some ways (for me), he is the failsafe perhaps, too (if Frodo fails). How do my ramblings all relate to his mutterings? Well, I think there are three important points that have come to mind. I will attempt to line them up to the three discussion points above, but work in reverse order.
First, while Sam may talk to himself, I do not believe he is trying to avoid being heard (at least not by Frodo), and this is important. If overheard, Sam would be fine I think, and would restate it broadly for others maybe in a more even/pragmatic sense, but his goal is not so much to grumble to the group, but rather to express himself and in some ways intimately to Frodo (and should we also include Bill?). This is gravitational context for us, but more importantly for the hobbits (the storytellers). They are in the big tale, and in ways both like the Professor shared (adventures are "filthy" things), but also part of something bigger than their borders. My assessment would also add that it is for Frodo (and Sam himself) as well. It works towards something, but I am not implying Sam is being explicitly intentional here, just natural and sincere.
But what is the purpose or the good so to speak of the muttering to Frodo (and himself)? How does this natural discourse of Sam work towards something intimately valuable for Frodo (and himself)?
This leads to my second thought that the expression while I agree is "not a joke," I do assess it is a more grounded and reachable form of hope/joy. Sam's tone is real, and Sam is simply "being," pretty close to the Heideggerian sense perhaps. The tone of merely a joke would play out much like the Professor shared in the broadcast, but a tone of hope (sincere being, not merely playing the part) comes - I think - across is ways like this. It helps Sam feel real. I can relate! I understand. Tolkien's dialog is this simple, but yet deep thing that so many modern adapters or writers perhaps miss...Sam is not simply saying encouraging things or holding the job of "High-hope" at which point we as readers may feel like he is a "paper-doll." It is easy enough to jabber out dialog that sounds fluffy of a role-based hope-giver sort, but Same is hope acting out working within, and coming alongside. This simple piece of dialog is working on him (and Frodo) as there is a thing he thinks of (very differently) that is "shelter" and that is a home. That is the Shire. It is the calling back (even in grumbling) for himself (and Frodo) that there is this anchor of what they hold dear, what they love, what is worth fighting and struggling onward for...Yet, Sam is not simply contriving buttery language. He is not trying really at-all. He is just being. This is what makes him (and other characters) feel so real (even when they are mythic) in Tolkien's world. Sam's grumble when I think about it, and feel it, does this deep and magical thing, it both calls me back to something I love, questions the audacity of Strider (without disrespect), and gives him (and Frodo) something to hold onto even in the bitter cold. He is not fabricating and idea, he is not contriving a dose of hope to sustain Frodo, he doing the real thing, he is speaking something into existence, and it is grounded in reality because it is not just language, it is who he is. This is the iterative process that will pay off for him and Frodo (and Middle Earth), it is the mix of what one is, where one came from, but what can be, when you hold true to these things. Sam words do make us smile (perhaps why we lean into "joking" as the sentiment), they do bring us comfort, and a "yeah - whatcha talking about 'shelter'" response, but Sam's calling for us back to "the form" "the idea" of shelter is not just words, but him being the living word of these things. These are perhaps what we mean when we say things like "it is all the little things" when we are trying to explain the impact someone has had on us or how we feel about something. It's these doses of being that are not simply tied up in contrived words.
Finally, Sam is a book-end. While this sounds mechanical, it is true in the sense of the published work, the authorial work, but also the reason for writing it at all. This is a hobbit story (started by Bilblo of course), but it is for Hobbits and therefore the context of it going to have their hobbitry all over it. I was divided into whether I agreed if this was Frodo or whether Sam wrote it. My first reaction was to say Sam, but the more I thought about it, the more I thought maybe Sam would not write a lot of dialog for himself, but rather insert marginal notes about Frodo, Bill and other things he saw. My gut, therefore, agrees with the Professor that this is Frodo, and intentionally Frodo setting a frame to ensure his audience (hobbits) have the last word, but also do something more, which is tie this thread, this through-line of hope from the simple things to what carries them forward. Hobbits (at least in heritage sense) certainly know what the Wild is or living or roaming it (and some made it over the Misty Mountains before), but this dose from Frodo is working forward in the story but also present for the reader (hobbit) to have more care, more gratitude for what they have or what has been protected for them in juxtaposition of what could be otherwise. This has more weight when it is book-ended by a hobbit. As I have reviewed now many times Sam having the last word happens, the sense is stronger for me that they are reminders (less narrator to modern reader and more Frodo to Hobbits) of what we have, and what others have done before them. It holds more weight when coming from a Hobbit, but even more coming from Sam.
For me, it is brilliant writing is 14 words.
I could not resist the pun, but I have been thinking about the great dialog on session 250 (with so much great foundation laid before it from this community) about Sam's comments. (btw, I am perhaps 'cheating' as when I reached Session 100, I started listening forward while I continue to catch-up).
I wanted to post some thoughts and reflections on 250 today.
"Shelter!", muttered Sam. "If this is shelter, then one wall and no roof make a house."
Some of the great discussion points were:
- Sam having the last word
- Sam's tone - all the following were discussed: having a dreary outlook (or grumbling), a joke, as well as some explanations for parallels (military, etc.)
- Sam not breaking into the conversation, but rather muttering to himself
I think on first pass, Sam's comment is hard to accept (standing by itself), and I think this (and perhaps other have as well) because when I think of Sam more abstracted as an archetype, I would describe him aligned with High-hope, the "good" in Gandalf's words for him traveling/being the companion of/with Frodo, and generally as the realistic bridge between myself and the "Others" around him (including Frodo and Oliphaunts). In some ways (for me), he is the failsafe perhaps, too (if Frodo fails). How do my ramblings all relate to his mutterings? Well, I think there are three important points that have come to mind. I will attempt to line them up to the three discussion points above, but work in reverse order.
First, while Sam may talk to himself, I do not believe he is trying to avoid being heard (at least not by Frodo), and this is important. If overheard, Sam would be fine I think, and would restate it broadly for others maybe in a more even/pragmatic sense, but his goal is not so much to grumble to the group, but rather to express himself and in some ways intimately to Frodo (and should we also include Bill?). This is gravitational context for us, but more importantly for the hobbits (the storytellers). They are in the big tale, and in ways both like the Professor shared (adventures are "filthy" things), but also part of something bigger than their borders. My assessment would also add that it is for Frodo (and Sam himself) as well. It works towards something, but I am not implying Sam is being explicitly intentional here, just natural and sincere.
But what is the purpose or the good so to speak of the muttering to Frodo (and himself)? How does this natural discourse of Sam work towards something intimately valuable for Frodo (and himself)?
This leads to my second thought that the expression while I agree is "not a joke," I do assess it is a more grounded and reachable form of hope/joy. Sam's tone is real, and Sam is simply "being," pretty close to the Heideggerian sense perhaps. The tone of merely a joke would play out much like the Professor shared in the broadcast, but a tone of hope (sincere being, not merely playing the part) comes - I think - across is ways like this. It helps Sam feel real. I can relate! I understand. Tolkien's dialog is this simple, but yet deep thing that so many modern adapters or writers perhaps miss...Sam is not simply saying encouraging things or holding the job of "High-hope" at which point we as readers may feel like he is a "paper-doll." It is easy enough to jabber out dialog that sounds fluffy of a role-based hope-giver sort, but Same is hope acting out working within, and coming alongside. This simple piece of dialog is working on him (and Frodo) as there is a thing he thinks of (very differently) that is "shelter" and that is a home. That is the Shire. It is the calling back (even in grumbling) for himself (and Frodo) that there is this anchor of what they hold dear, what they love, what is worth fighting and struggling onward for...Yet, Sam is not simply contriving buttery language. He is not trying really at-all. He is just being. This is what makes him (and other characters) feel so real (even when they are mythic) in Tolkien's world. Sam's grumble when I think about it, and feel it, does this deep and magical thing, it both calls me back to something I love, questions the audacity of Strider (without disrespect), and gives him (and Frodo) something to hold onto even in the bitter cold. He is not fabricating and idea, he is not contriving a dose of hope to sustain Frodo, he doing the real thing, he is speaking something into existence, and it is grounded in reality because it is not just language, it is who he is. This is the iterative process that will pay off for him and Frodo (and Middle Earth), it is the mix of what one is, where one came from, but what can be, when you hold true to these things. Sam words do make us smile (perhaps why we lean into "joking" as the sentiment), they do bring us comfort, and a "yeah - whatcha talking about 'shelter'" response, but Sam's calling for us back to "the form" "the idea" of shelter is not just words, but him being the living word of these things. These are perhaps what we mean when we say things like "it is all the little things" when we are trying to explain the impact someone has had on us or how we feel about something. It's these doses of being that are not simply tied up in contrived words.
Finally, Sam is a book-end. While this sounds mechanical, it is true in the sense of the published work, the authorial work, but also the reason for writing it at all. This is a hobbit story (started by Bilblo of course), but it is for Hobbits and therefore the context of it going to have their hobbitry all over it. I was divided into whether I agreed if this was Frodo or whether Sam wrote it. My first reaction was to say Sam, but the more I thought about it, the more I thought maybe Sam would not write a lot of dialog for himself, but rather insert marginal notes about Frodo, Bill and other things he saw. My gut, therefore, agrees with the Professor that this is Frodo, and intentionally Frodo setting a frame to ensure his audience (hobbits) have the last word, but also do something more, which is tie this thread, this through-line of hope from the simple things to what carries them forward. Hobbits (at least in heritage sense) certainly know what the Wild is or living or roaming it (and some made it over the Misty Mountains before), but this dose from Frodo is working forward in the story but also present for the reader (hobbit) to have more care, more gratitude for what they have or what has been protected for them in juxtaposition of what could be otherwise. This has more weight when it is book-ended by a hobbit. As I have reviewed now many times Sam having the last word happens, the sense is stronger for me that they are reminders (less narrator to modern reader and more Frodo to Hobbits) of what we have, and what others have done before them. It holds more weight when coming from a Hobbit, but even more coming from Sam.
For me, it is brilliant writing is 14 words.
