Session 3.01 and 3.07 - Season Overview

Discussion in 'Episode Questions' started by MithLuin, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Silm Film is back! Season 3 is beginning soon, and we have some preliminary stuff to take care of before beginning the specific episodes for this Season.

    Season 3 is a much shorter timeframe than Seasons 1 and 2, so it will likely have a different feel to the pacing, being more in 'real time' rather than having generational time skips.

    Some questions we can discuss before we get started:

    1) Season 3 will begin with the Noldor gathering in the torchlit square of Tirion for the rebellion and the Oath of Fëanor. What is the ending point?

    2) How do we want to integrate the Beleriand/Doriath/Green Elves storyline into this season?

    3) What overall themes do we want to focus on, and what should be the mid-Season turning point? (Destruction of the Lamps in Season 1, Trial of Melkor in Season 2)

    4) Villains storylines - how much will we see 'behind the scenes' in Angband?​

    Hope that's enough to get us started - obviously, bring up any concerns you have about Season 3 as we get started.
  2. amysrevenge

    amysrevenge Active Member

    It sounds crazy because it's only like 4 (40) years, but could the whole season be bookended by the Oath at one end, and the rising of the moon at the other end? There's a lot of content to fit in there, especially if we fill out the first Kinslaying to be more than a footnote/passing mention (same for the Helcaraxe crossing I suppose).

    We probably have to get used to the idea now. We'll be fleshing out footnotes into whole episodes/arcs more and more as we go on.
  3. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Here are some of the events we will want to cover in Season 3:

    1250 Dwarves enter Beleriand.
    1300 Thingol builds Menegroth. Daeron invents the Runes.
    1330 Orcs enter Beleriand
    1350 Nandor enter Beleriand
    1495 Flight of the Noldor. First Kinslaying.
    1496 Doom of Mandos. Finarfin turns back.
    1497 Morgoth attacks Beleriand. Fëanor reaches Middle-earth and burns the ships. Death of Fëanor. Capture of Maedhros.
    1498 Maedhros sent to Thangorodrim
    1500 Rising of the Moon and the Sun. Hiding of Valinor. Fingolfin reaches Middle-earth.

    If we include events after the rising of the Moon and Sun, it won't be much...

    1 Rising of the Moon and the Sun. Fingolfin reaches Middle-earth.
    2 Fingolfin arrives in Mithrim
    5 Fingon rescues Maedhros and the Noldor are reunited.
    7 Sons of Fëanor leave Mithrim.
    20 Fingolfin holds the Feast of Reuniting *(definitely a Season 4 event)
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  4. amysrevenge

    amysrevenge Active Member

    Yeah I was torn on the rescue of Maedhros. Ultimately I think it sets the right tone as the start of 4, rather than the end of 3.
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  5. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    I feel that the rescue of Maedhros and the decision to make Fingolfin High King go together, but that could be a season end/season begin thing. Season 4 will end with the Death of Fingolfin, so Season 4 needs to begin with something Fingolfin-centric.

    The rising of the Sun and the Moon is a BIG DEAL, so it fits in well at the end of the season, but, it's also a Valar-centric episode, so doesn't fit as a season finale (probably). IF the penultimate episode is the rising of the Sun and the Moon and the arrival of Fingolfin's host in Beleriand....then we would need a season finale that would probably include Fingon's rescue of Maedhros.

    If we do manage to get the entire way through to the crowning of Fingolfin as High King, then that would allow Season 4 to open on the Feast of Reuniting, which sounds like something you do after a gap/break in the show, rather than Episode 2 of Season 4....but, well, we can make it work either way.
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  6. Brian Dimmick

    Brian Dimmick Member

    I think the rising of the Sun over the hosts of Fingolfin marching into Middle Earth would be a great closing scene to Season 3. It is a BIG DEAL storywise, and it could be visually very memorable. It also strikes a note of hope that could be a nice way to end a season that, in the Noldor storyline at least, will be pretty dark. (Of course, using the crowning of Fingolfin as the season end would strike a similar theme).

    From a production perspective, the lighting needs to change once the Sun rises, and that might be more smoothly done at a season break.

    I’m also not sure, if we went that way, that the final episode needs to be Valar-centric. The scene where the Sun rises doesn’t necessarily have to go with the story of how it was made. We could set that up in a prior episode (at least showing that the Valar are trying to do something big with the last flower of the Trees). Or we could tell it in flashback (we see the Moon and Sun rise at the end of season 3 but don’t learn where they came from until season 4).
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  7. Ange1e4e5

    Ange1e4e5 Active Member

    • Quarrel between Morgoth and Ungoliant and the flight of Ungallant
    • Morgoth crowns himself
  8. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Those scenes happen in the finale of Season 2, Angeleyes.
    Nicholas Palazzo likes this.
  9. Ange1e4e5

    Ange1e4e5 Active Member

    Forgot about that, with Morgoth going all Leonardo DiCaprio.
  10. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    So, my recommendation for the ending points of Season 3 are as follows:

    Feanor is dead and Maedhros has been captured by Melkor and hung from Thangorodrim.
    Fingolfin & Co. have taken their first steps in Middle Earth.
    The moon has risen.

    Ok, so there is a way to handle this. We don't have to do all the Valar-centric stuff in the same episode that the moon rises. We show what the Valar are doing to make the sun and moon in the penultimate or antepenultimate episode, and not show the actual rising taking place until the final moments of S03E13. This would allow us to have a finale that focuses on our main characters, but tell the story of what the Valar are up to.

    Didn't see this until I was already writing this post, but yes to the former. The latter... we could do a S04 flashback, but ... I'm not a fan of doing a flashback in a flashback kind of thing if we can help it. It's ok, but ... we probably won't even see the Valar throughout S04 (with the exception of Ulmo). I'd just as soon keep all of our focus on our elvish characters.

    I still believe that it is a mistake to rush through and get to the Death of Fingolfin in S04, but I also think that's a S04 issue, so I'll let that be aside from this brief aside.
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  11. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    Even though we know that the Beleriand storylines are all things that were happening during S02, I would like to show them as if they were concurrent. If we were doing separate seasons, (which is the direction I would have chosen) it would be ok to simply do the Beleriand stories first, but changing partway through the season will wreak havoc with the thematic story arc and especially with its relationship to the frame. We already had a problem in this area in S02, I would just as soon not continue to do so.
  12. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    So, we have several story threads (aside from the frame) that we are following:

    1: Feanor & Co. We will be following them from start to finish.
    2. Fingolfin & Co. We will be following them along with the Feanorians, but they will split off after the burning of the ships, and spend the last 1-3 episodes alone.
    3. Doriath. While I am an advocate of spending quality time with the dwarves in S04, I do think we should be seeing them mostly through the eyes of the Sindar in S03. This storyline will likely begin to fade in the last few episodes, but we should at least see Thingol sending operatives to investigate the goings on in the north.
    4. The Villains. Melkor's takeover of the SSNOP, continued political rivalry between Sauron and Gothmog, possibly ending with Sauron being sent to the "frontier outpost". Again. Not to mention, the overrunning of Beleriand.
    5. The Valar. Their reaction to the Flight of the Noldor, the Kinslaying, and last season's Darkening of Valinor will be the Prophecy of the North and the creation of the Sun and Moon.

    The most obvious themes dealt with in the Noldor storylines would be pride and misplaced loyalty/courage, and the horror and mayhem they cause. While the Beleriand plot is mostly world-building, it also can have overtones related to pride. We're setting up Thingol as a proud king. Villains... yeah, plenty of pride there.

    I would say that the Valar and their reaction to everything are exemplifying humility in a way that we have not previously seen from them. I mean, they weren't prideful before, but it is certainly humility that leads them to let the Noldor leave, even after the Kinslaying, and also to stay out of Middle Earth.

    As to a midway point, the choices, as I see them:

    1. The Kinslaying
    2. The Prophecy
    3. The Burning

    While the first, and third options are possibly more dramatic, I'm thinking I'm going to advocate for the Prophecy. It's the no-going-back moment. It sets up what is going to happen in the primary plot for the rest of the season. And it is the last connection between the Valar and the Exiles for a long, long time. (Ulmo being the exception.)
  13. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    I hear you. One issue, though, is that most of the Beleriand stuff needs to happen before the Noldor return, because it is in reaction to Morgoth waging war on them...and the Noldor appear as 'saviors' in the midst of that.

    We can change that (allow the Doriath storyline to develop throughout Season 3), but then we would have consequences to their reaction to the arrival of the Noldor. Not insurmountable consequences, but we do need to pay attention when we change things.
  14. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    As for the Death of Fingolfin ending Season 4 - that's practically a requirement if we want Season 5 to be Beren and Lúthien (which we do). And so, we will have the entire first 455 years of the First Age all happen in Season 4 at this rate. Everyone is thinking, how much needs to go on screen for 'Of Beleriand and its Realms'?, but I think people are forgetting that the Eol-Aredhel-Maeglin storyline goes in there, the construction of Nargothrond and Gondolin early in the season, and of course the introduction of Men. So yeah....packed.

    I agree that the Rising of the Moon and the Sun works much better as a Season finale if all the Valar-centric set-up happened in an earlier episode, and we just see the results in the finale.

    But the over-packed nature of Season 4 is one reason I wanted to at least suggest having Season 3 stretch a bit further, to possibly include either Fingon's rescue of Maedhros or even the crowning of Fingolfin. For one thing, it resolves some of the Noldor issues and feels like more of an ending point than just having Fingolfin's host arrive on the scene, but then again, so shows like to end the season with a cliff-hanger or twist to make you really anticipate what is going to happen in the next season. Fingolfin's arrival as the sun rises and the flowers bloom would be a *what?!* moment for the audience, so that can work.
  15. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    I am not part of the "we" here. :) I'd prefer to put it off to Season 6 and do a more full story of the Noldor, Sindar, and Naughrim. Rather than pushing Season 3 past a natural ending point to trim off some of Season 4, I would rather us tell the story Of Beleriand and its Realms there up until the rampage of Glaurung. This would give us enough time to tell the stories of Nargothrond and Gondolin without simply dropping fully formed cities into the landscape, talk about Eol, set up the antagonism between Thingol and the Feanorians which is part of the story of Beren and Luthien, do the dwarves justice as a developed race with their own story, establish Sauron at Taur-nu-Fuin. There's a lot to do. I really feel like we are rushing things a bit trying to get to Beren and Luthien by S05.
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  16. Haakon

    Haakon Well-Known Member

    We could tell the sketchy story of the events in Beleriand as a report to Morgoth by Sauron, Gothmog and perhaps Thuringwethil. That way we could effectively combine it with showing the state of business in Angband. This could happen in episode two or three, or after the Oath at least.
  17. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    I do detest this form of story-telling, though. I mean, it works, but I feel it is less optimal than just showing the viewers what happens.
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  18. Haakon

    Haakon Well-Known Member

    Well, my original idea, which I like much more, was that we tease the viewers and wait with the obvious beginning (the Oath) and take time to show what's happened in Beleriand using an episode. Then we go to the Oath in episode 2.
  19. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    Which I understand, but the Beleriand story cannot be told in a single episode anyway. And since our main focus is (or should be, I think) on the Noldor, I don't see how not engaging with their storyline in what is essentially the opening act of the season's story arc helps us get said story arc across.
  20. Haakon

    Haakon Well-Known Member

    The events in Beleriand take place before the Fëanoreans arrive and take two hundred years or so, and are very sketchy, while the Fëanoreans exile and arrival are a more condensed story. They are hard to combine in parallel.
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