Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I have made the attempt to push for a season to cover that material, but to no avail. There seems to be great momentum behind the idea of doing Beren and Luthien for S05.
Session 3.01 and 3.07 - Season Overview
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
I have made the attempt to push for a season to cover that material, but to no avail. There seems to be great momentum behind the idea of doing Beren and Luthien for S05.
There is one reason not to clue the audience in that the building of Menegroth, etc, takes place over hundreds if not thousands of years.
We don't get orcs (in our story) until Morgoth comes back. And we don't have any real menace in Beleriand until orcs are unleashed on the world.
And so...we are going to be heavily implying that our entire 'Meanwhile, in Beleriand' storyline is happening more-or-less after the darkening of Valinor. Sure, the first part of Episode 3 can be a step back to pre-Morgoth Beleriand, but....we can't wait forever to introduce the primary conflict.
To keep the audience from getting whiplash (why are we dropping the Noldor storyline after two episodes?), it's going to have to be presented as "What the villains are up to" more than "What Thingol and co. are up to."
We don't get orcs (in our story) until Morgoth comes back. And we don't have any real menace in Beleriand until orcs are unleashed on the world.
And so...we are going to be heavily implying that our entire 'Meanwhile, in Beleriand' storyline is happening more-or-less after the darkening of Valinor. Sure, the first part of Episode 3 can be a step back to pre-Morgoth Beleriand, but....we can't wait forever to introduce the primary conflict.
To keep the audience from getting whiplash (why are we dropping the Noldor storyline after two episodes?), it's going to have to be presented as "What the villains are up to" more than "What Thingol and co. are up to."
dietlbomb
Member
The primary conflict in Beleriand before the return of Morgoth doesn't have to be the struggle against the orcs. The attack of the orcs is the climax. Why not have the conflict be:
Remember when we did a whole episode on the debate over whether the elves should depart Cuivienen for Valinor?
Also, this is SilmFilm, not Game of Thrones. There is no audience. The point is to adapt the actual story of the Silmarillion as best as we can while avoiding the worst of Peter Jackson-style plot changes.
Two episodes away from the Noldor isn't a huge burden. SciFi TV shows do multiple episode arcs in different times and alternate universes all the time. Remember the finale of Star Trek Enterprise Season 3, when Captain Archer woke up in an alternate history of the planet Earth where aliens were helping the Nazis, and we had to sit through 2 episodes of that stuff before they actually resolved the Xindi storyline? Now that's audience whiplash.
In The Two Towers, the narrative goes from the Battle of Helm's deep and parley with Saruman straight to several chapters of Frodo and Sam walking and walking and walking, and following Gollum, and trying to avoid danger. They don't do much fighting. But it's still very interesting.
Also, there is plenty of narrative room for a couple slow episodes after the 2 slam-bang Noldor episodes that start the season. We can take a breath after the Kinslaying, and slowly build up to the war in Beleriand from the Sindar's perspective. All storylines converge on Feanor's arrival.
Now I'm not in charge of any of this; I'm just a listener to the podcast who chimes in on occasion. But I don't like the idea of changing the Beleriand story for what seem like studio-executive reasons. IMO, the risk of audience whiplash is low. The payoff for a fuller treatment of Beleriand is big.
- Internal debate among the Sindarin about what to do now that they've found Thingol. Do they really want to settle in Doriath?
- Surely some elves have the hots for Luthien. This is a good time to set up why she is still available when Beren strolls along.
- Conflict between the elves and the dwarves. Let's see some elven diplomacy.
- Conflict between the petty dwarves and the rest of the dwarves.
- Uncovering the mystery about why evil monsters are appearing at the northern border.
- The story of how the Green Elves decided to cross the Ered Luin.
Remember when we did a whole episode on the debate over whether the elves should depart Cuivienen for Valinor?
Also, this is SilmFilm, not Game of Thrones. There is no audience. The point is to adapt the actual story of the Silmarillion as best as we can while avoiding the worst of Peter Jackson-style plot changes.
Two episodes away from the Noldor isn't a huge burden. SciFi TV shows do multiple episode arcs in different times and alternate universes all the time. Remember the finale of Star Trek Enterprise Season 3, when Captain Archer woke up in an alternate history of the planet Earth where aliens were helping the Nazis, and we had to sit through 2 episodes of that stuff before they actually resolved the Xindi storyline? Now that's audience whiplash.
In The Two Towers, the narrative goes from the Battle of Helm's deep and parley with Saruman straight to several chapters of Frodo and Sam walking and walking and walking, and following Gollum, and trying to avoid danger. They don't do much fighting. But it's still very interesting.
Also, there is plenty of narrative room for a couple slow episodes after the 2 slam-bang Noldor episodes that start the season. We can take a breath after the Kinslaying, and slowly build up to the war in Beleriand from the Sindar's perspective. All storylines converge on Feanor's arrival.
Now I'm not in charge of any of this; I'm just a listener to the podcast who chimes in on occasion. But I don't like the idea of changing the Beleriand story for what seem like studio-executive reasons. IMO, the risk of audience whiplash is low. The payoff for a fuller treatment of Beleriand is big.
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I agree that the landing of Fëanor at Lammoth should seem to merge the storylines all together. It certainly fixes the timeline at that point. But...they are still geographically disparate and will remain that way. The Sindar aren't exactly in communication with the Noldor this season.
And I agree that cutting away from one storyline for an episode or so is no big deal. It mostly depends if you leave the other story on a cliffhanger or not as to how long you can expect the hypothetical audience to put up with that. We left Thingol half a season ago, but we'd resolved the situation with him and Melian being accepted by the Sindar, so it was at a good stopping point when we cut away. 'Aftermath of the Kinslaying; no word from the Valar' is maybe a slightly more fraught situation to walk away from? For 4 straight episodes? But of course we can do it. It's more a matter of making the audience understand why they care about Beleriand again, since we abandoned that storyline ourselves for so long. It's not that we can't pull off that transition, it's that we're going to have to put some thought into doing it well, and developing the Beleriand storyline in a way that is compelling.
It's easy to have one of the multiple storyline threads be the 'boring' one - the one that whenever you switch back to it, the audience sighs in exasperation: 'Nobody cares!' Treebeard with Merry and Pippin was that storyline in The Two Towers. The audience really had no reason to worry about what was going on with Merry and Pippin at that point, and Treebeard just seemed to be walking around doing nothing particularly useful, either. They wanted the ent attack on Isengard to be a surprise, and it was (I guess), but since the audience didn't know how the ents fit into the main storyline, the scenes came across as rather boring.
Hmmm. This is just an exercise for our own amusement, it's true. Certainly this isn't a real film project. Good storytelling, however, does require some thought of the audience when making decisions. You don't have to be completely formulaic, but you have to be aware of what dialogue won't make sense to the viewer, or what actions seem to occur without motivation. Some of the false dilemmas and artificial sense of urgency on TV shows is maybe not good storytelling, even if those are common enough devices to make sure the audience experiences some tension. We don't have to be gimmicky or cheap about this. We just have to tell a story that unfolds in a way that makes sense. So, when I'm asking why the audience should care about what is going on in Beleriand, I'm asking that that story be made relevant to the bigger picture of the season, so there's not a sense of 'more Grey elves hanging out in the woods, ho hum, nobody cares - can't there be an orc attack and just wipe these people out?' That's...not the vibe we're going for.
While everyone involved in this project has seen the Peter Jackson films, the goal of this project was not to set out to 'do a better job than PJ' - it was to discuss the adaptation of the Silmarillion to television.
We are willing (apparently) to make some changes that don't scream 'faithful adaptation'. We have invented scenes wholesale (particularly in Season 1). But hopefully these changes serve the purpose of telling the story and developing the characters so the audience understands where they are at that point.
And, yes, we do want to avoid wince-worthy changes to the story, but....just because we want to do a good job doesn't mean we always do. Some of our decisions are potentially cheesy, and would be challenging for a writer to work around.
None of us is in charge. Well, except for Corey Olsen. This is his project. But he does like input from the listeners, and certainly if people can make a good case, he's happy to consider suggestions that contradict his own original ideas. And, if you wait long enough, he sometimes forgets what his ideas were and completely changes his mind.
And I agree that cutting away from one storyline for an episode or so is no big deal. It mostly depends if you leave the other story on a cliffhanger or not as to how long you can expect the hypothetical audience to put up with that. We left Thingol half a season ago, but we'd resolved the situation with him and Melian being accepted by the Sindar, so it was at a good stopping point when we cut away. 'Aftermath of the Kinslaying; no word from the Valar' is maybe a slightly more fraught situation to walk away from? For 4 straight episodes? But of course we can do it. It's more a matter of making the audience understand why they care about Beleriand again, since we abandoned that storyline ourselves for so long. It's not that we can't pull off that transition, it's that we're going to have to put some thought into doing it well, and developing the Beleriand storyline in a way that is compelling.
It's easy to have one of the multiple storyline threads be the 'boring' one - the one that whenever you switch back to it, the audience sighs in exasperation: 'Nobody cares!' Treebeard with Merry and Pippin was that storyline in The Two Towers. The audience really had no reason to worry about what was going on with Merry and Pippin at that point, and Treebeard just seemed to be walking around doing nothing particularly useful, either. They wanted the ent attack on Isengard to be a surprise, and it was (I guess), but since the audience didn't know how the ents fit into the main storyline, the scenes came across as rather boring.
Hmmm. This is just an exercise for our own amusement, it's true. Certainly this isn't a real film project. Good storytelling, however, does require some thought of the audience when making decisions. You don't have to be completely formulaic, but you have to be aware of what dialogue won't make sense to the viewer, or what actions seem to occur without motivation. Some of the false dilemmas and artificial sense of urgency on TV shows is maybe not good storytelling, even if those are common enough devices to make sure the audience experiences some tension. We don't have to be gimmicky or cheap about this. We just have to tell a story that unfolds in a way that makes sense. So, when I'm asking why the audience should care about what is going on in Beleriand, I'm asking that that story be made relevant to the bigger picture of the season, so there's not a sense of 'more Grey elves hanging out in the woods, ho hum, nobody cares - can't there be an orc attack and just wipe these people out?' That's...not the vibe we're going for.
While everyone involved in this project has seen the Peter Jackson films, the goal of this project was not to set out to 'do a better job than PJ' - it was to discuss the adaptation of the Silmarillion to television.
We are willing (apparently) to make some changes that don't scream 'faithful adaptation'. We have invented scenes wholesale (particularly in Season 1). But hopefully these changes serve the purpose of telling the story and developing the characters so the audience understands where they are at that point.
And, yes, we do want to avoid wince-worthy changes to the story, but....just because we want to do a good job doesn't mean we always do. Some of our decisions are potentially cheesy, and would be challenging for a writer to work around.
None of us is in charge. Well, except for Corey Olsen. This is his project. But he does like input from the listeners, and certainly if people can make a good case, he's happy to consider suggestions that contradict his own original ideas. And, if you wait long enough, he sometimes forgets what his ideas were and completely changes his mind.
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Also, just because we are not actually making a show, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to craft something that would be fun to watch for people who are not us.
Alcarohtar
Active Member
Just a suggestion
Beleriand Story Arc:
Phase 1: Doriath set up, first orc-attacks, dwarf-alliance, building of Menegroth, the Sindar goes dark.
Phase 2: Mairon sends scouts throughout Beleriand. He learns about the arrival of the Green elves and that the sindar are seeking refuge in Doriath. Disguises himself as a fugitive and learns about Menegroth. Dwarves and elves have been forging weapons for a long time, so when Mairon launches an attack they are ready for it.
Phase 3: Mairon attacks everywhere in Beleriand (the First Battle). The havens are under siege and the Green Elves who haven't encountered orcs before are slaughtered. After winning the battle in Doriath, Thingol sets out to aid the Green elves, they battle on Amon Ereb. Denethor and many Green elves are killed, but Thingol army defeats the orcs. Most Green elves will not take a new leader and start living a secretive life in Ossiriand. Some others of the green elves seek refuge in Doriath and are called the Guest-Elves (Saeros is one of these). Thingol has lost too many men to send aid to the havens.
The havens would have fallen, but Gothmog orders the orcs to attack the noldor instead and the Havens are saved.
Even though elves defeated the orcs they had terrible losses and that’s why Mairon is the winner of the battle.
- E1: Rebellion of Fëanor
- Oath
- Non-reaction of Valar
- Parting of families before leaving (Anairë and Fingolfin, Emarië and Finrod, Finarfin and Eärwen, Fëanor and Nerdanel,+)
- Brief visit to Angband -- Fortification of Thangorodrim
- E2: Kinslaying
- Ossë and Uinen
- Death of Olwë and Irimë
- Storm of Uinen
- E3: Meanwhile, in Beleriand
- Establish Thingol, Melian, and their court
- Luthien, Daeron
- SSNOP details, orcs being prepped for release
- Boldog
- Sauron given charge of campaign in South, Gothmog in the north (Hithlum, there are Sindar here before the Noldor arrive)
- First orc raids (Mablung and Beleg)
- Elves losing and dying
- E4: Khazad Ai Menu!
- Encounter with dwarves
- alliance negotiated
- Menegroth given to Elves
- Mîm tossed, disgruntled
- The Sindar go dark so Mairon can’t find them (Kind of like Nargothrond, sneaky)
- Sauron starts Phase 2 (also sneaky!)
- E5:
- Mairon sends scouts out to all of Beleriand.
- He learns about the Green elves ( and ents!) arrival in Ossiriand (We see them on screen while Thuringwethil tells Mairon about them. Thuringwethil “ A new group of Elves has arrived from the east. Blah blah blah. They are a primitive people, with no kind of protection living in Ossiriand.” Mairon “Interesting, we’ll deal with them later”.
- He discovers that elves are seeking refuge a hidden place in Doriath
- Divided host of the Noldor moving up the coast
- Reminding people of the friendship between Maedhros and Fingon
- Tensions between the fingolfinians and the feanorians
- Mairon disguises himself as a fugitive. He is guided to Menegroth by an elf trying to rescue refugees.
- Mairon sends scouts out to all of Beleriand.
- E6: The Sun and Moon
- The Valar mourning the loss of the Trees and the kinslaying
- Vana and Lorien trying to revive them with the last due from the trees
- Yavanna and Nienna intervene and stop them from spoiling the last light
- Yavanna tells them that no one can rekindle the trees without the Silmarils
- Nienna cries and Yavanna sings
- The last fruit of Telperion and the last flower of Laurelin comes forth.
- Making of the Sun and moon (Aulë making the vessels?)
- Arien and Tilion?
- E7:
- Curse of Mandos
- Finarfin turns back
- Burial of Olwë?
- Mairon launches the attack on Beleriand (The First Battle)
- Besieging the Havens
- Thingol and the dwarves have been making weapons, so they defeat the attack on Menegroth and sets out to help the green elves
- The green elves are slaughtered on Amon Ereb, Denethor dies
- The orcs are defeated but both Thingol and the Green elves have suffered heavy losses.
- Green Elves vow to never take a new leader
- Fëanor sets off with the ships
- E8:
- Melian sets up the girdle to protect Doriath from attacks in the future
- Some green Elves settle in Doriath as guests of king Thingol (Guest-Elves, Saeros is one of them)
- They are too few to send aid to the Havens
- They prey to the valar for help against Morgoth
- Fëanor arrives in Losgar ("When are we picking up the others?" Twin fight!)
- Burning of the Ships
- Death of Amras (is Fëanor so crazy that he doesn’t mourn his death? Is he like “He betrayed me”?)
- Fingolfin see the smoke across the ocean
- Setting off across the Helcaraxë
- Gothmog watching the fires from the burning
- E9:
- Fëanor travels into Hithlum and set up a camp by the shores of lake Mithrim
- First battle with orcs, victory of Fëanor (Dagor-nuin-Giliath)
- Gothmog sends his orcs down to attack the noldor
- The orcs are slaughtered and Gothmog is humiliated
- E10:
- Crossing the Helcaraxë
- People freezing, not much food
- Finarfin comes back to Valinor
- Council of the Valar, Elulindo wants revenge for his father, on the Noldor and on Morgoth
- Finarfin is forgiven
- Debate about helping the peoples in Middle-Earth or not
- Ulmo is for helping, telling of the Sindar pleading for help
- At last the hiding of Valinor is decided
- Crossing the Helcaraxë
- E11:
- Still Crossing the Helcaraxë
- The Ice is cracking up
- Elenwë and Idril falls into the water. Idril is saved, but Elenwë drowns in a Whirlpool (Wiruin)
- The orcs are retreating from the Havens to help Gothmog kill some Noldor.
- Reaction of the Sindar when the orcs just leave? Is it a miracle?
- These orcs are also smashed by the Noldor
- Fëanor follows the retreating orcs to Angband
- Balrogs comes forth
- Death of Feanor (Gothmog gets his mojo back)
- Still Crossing the Helcaraxë
- E12:
- Morgoth's Court
- Mairon critisizing Gothmog (you killed one elf! I slaughtered and scattered my enemies. I would have destroyed them if you hadn't taken away all my besieging forces)
- Morgoth gives Mairon command of Gothmog's operation
- Mairon invites the Noldor to a parley
- Arrival from Helcaraxë, Rising of the Moon
- Morgoth's Court
- E13: Despair and Hope
- Capture of Maedhros
- Battle of Lammoth
- Death of Argon
- Marching to Thangorodrim
- Rising of the Sun
- Maedhros screaming for help, but the Noldor can't hear him
- Fingolfin march back and set up their camp in Mithrim
- Messengers arrive to Thingol, telling of Noldor
- E1: Rebellion of Fëanor
- Trolls!
- Eöl
Beleriand Story Arc:
Phase 1: Doriath set up, first orc-attacks, dwarf-alliance, building of Menegroth, the Sindar goes dark.
Phase 2: Mairon sends scouts throughout Beleriand. He learns about the arrival of the Green elves and that the sindar are seeking refuge in Doriath. Disguises himself as a fugitive and learns about Menegroth. Dwarves and elves have been forging weapons for a long time, so when Mairon launches an attack they are ready for it.
Phase 3: Mairon attacks everywhere in Beleriand (the First Battle). The havens are under siege and the Green Elves who haven't encountered orcs before are slaughtered. After winning the battle in Doriath, Thingol sets out to aid the Green elves, they battle on Amon Ereb. Denethor and many Green elves are killed, but Thingol army defeats the orcs. Most Green elves will not take a new leader and start living a secretive life in Ossiriand. Some others of the green elves seek refuge in Doriath and are called the Guest-Elves (Saeros is one of these). Thingol has lost too many men to send aid to the havens.
The havens would have fallen, but Gothmog orders the orcs to attack the noldor instead and the Havens are saved.
Even though elves defeated the orcs they had terrible losses and that’s why Mairon is the winner of the battle.
Alcarohtar
Active Member
Maybe the host of Fingolfin wake the sound of the Echoing Mountains. Gothmog or someone sends his armies there because of the sound.
Alcarohtar
Active Member
I want to keep the different phases of Sauron's attack as you decided, but I also want to keep things from the book.
I want to keep the First Battle as one battle that happens before the Second Battle. In the book Thingol comes to aid Denethor on Amon Ereb and the Girdle is first made after the First Battle.
When you decided to have the doom in e7 I put in some valinor-stuff. The later episodes are very back and forth between the different storylines, but I didn't know how to do it better.
The guest elves are not necessary, but I still want them, it sets up Saeros.
I want to show the debate about the hiding of Valinor, and I think Elulindo should be there and speak on behalf for the Teleri.
I have also included the scene that Ray Burns came up with:
I want to keep the First Battle as one battle that happens before the Second Battle. In the book Thingol comes to aid Denethor on Amon Ereb and the Girdle is first made after the First Battle.
When you decided to have the doom in e7 I put in some valinor-stuff. The later episodes are very back and forth between the different storylines, but I didn't know how to do it better.
The guest elves are not necessary, but I still want them, it sets up Saeros.
I want to show the debate about the hiding of Valinor, and I think Elulindo should be there and speak on behalf for the Teleri.
I have also included the scene that Ray Burns came up with:
Alcarohtar
Active Member
I don't know how to include Trolls or which episode Eöl should be in. Any ideas?
Alcarohtar
Active Member
What if we spilt season 4 in two at the coming of men into Beleriand?
S4: Awakening of men - Men entering Beleriand
- Men story:
- Avari and men (maybe not the story with Nuin and Tu/Tuvo)
- Corruption of men and the Battle of Palisor (Fangli/Fankil=?Mairon?)
- The faithful men flee west
- Show the migration?
- Sea of Rhun (Bëor vs Marach)
- Rhovanion (The northmen)
- The White Mountains and Eriador (Sundering of the Haladin, Dunlendings and Drûgs, pukelmen)
- Tom Bombadil scene
- Show the migration?
- Beleriand stuff (Nordor and Sindar):
- Fingon rescues Maedhros
- Crowning of Fingolfin
- Thingol grants the north to the Noldor as a gift for helping them against Morgoth (Hithlum, Nevrast, Dorthonion, Himring, Thargelion)
- Sons of Fëanor moving east
- Mereth Aderthad
- Ulmo’s visions to Finrod and Turgon
- The finarfins are guests in Doriath
- Nulukkizdîn discovered by Finrod (Mîm tossed again)
- Turgon finds Tumladen
- Dagor Aglareb
- Construction of Minas Tirith (Tol Sirion)
- Siege of Angband begins
- Building of Barad Eithel
- Turgon moving from Nevrast
- Galadriel tells of the Silmarils
- Gondolin and Nargothrond completed
- Thingol learns of the Kinslaying and the death of his brother, he bans Quenya
- Orc attack on Hithlum from Lammoth/Drengist
- After this defeat and the Dagor Aglareb Morgoth start to make Dragons
- Finrod builds the Barad Minras tower to watch the sea (if morgoth had marines)
- Glaurung is set loose and defeated on Ard-Galen, the Long Peace begins
- Finrod meets the house of Bëor in Ossiriand
- Friendship between Bëor and Finrod
- Men vs Green elves, Estolad
- House of Haleth, Thargelion
- House of Marach, Estolad
- Aredhel leaves Gondolin to find Curufin and Celegorm
- Aredhel meets Eöl
- Maeglin is born
- Bëor dies in service to Finrod, the first death by age seen by elves
- Council of Estolad
- Amlach (Really Sauron?)
- Bereg leaving with thousand people southwards
- The Haladin battle with orcs
- Haleth's father and brother dies
- Haleth leading her folk to Estolad (then to Brethil)
- House of Haleth vs Thingol
- They have to protect the borders of Doriath
- Aredhel and Maeglin return to Gondolin, Eöl follows them. Aredhel is killed and Eöl is executed
- Battle of the Pass of Aglon
- Hador enters the service of Fingolfin
- Ladros given to the House of Bëor
- Boromir is their leader
- Bregor the new Lord of Ladros
- Andreth and Aegnor
- Bregolas is the new lord of Ladros
- Dor-Lomin is given to the House of Hador
- More stuff setting up men
- Emeldir and Barahir
- Death of Haleth, the son of her brother is the new leader
- Dagor Bragollach
- Morgoth breaks the siege
- Burning of Ard-Galen
- Barahir rescues Finrod and is given the ring
- Hador and his son Gundor dies at Barad Eithel
- Pass of Aglon breached
- Celegorm and Curufin flee to Nargothrond
- Dorthonion is conquered and Angrod and Aegnor is killed, death of Bregolas
- Fingolfin in single battle with Morgoth, Fingolfin dies
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
I believe Trolls should be invented later, after Sauron's Orcs have been devastated by Ents in Tasarinan or a similar occasion. Sauron would think "Hmm... we may need something big and powerful" and start to experiment in creating Trolls... And i DO think we should have many-headed Trolls in the first age!
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Perhaps they were under development in the years of Morgoth's imprisonment?
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Alcarohtar
Active Member
Yeah because it's way too much stuff to cover in just 13 episodes.
I am *very* concerned about covering the entire first 455 years of the First Age in Season 4 - introducing several generations of Men, dealing with the Eol/Aredhel/Maeglin story, the Andreth/Aegnor story, several major battles, building Nargothrond and Gondolin, and the whole 'Thingol finds out about the Kinslaying and bans Quenya, just kidding, jewelry.' It's...really a lot, considering that it would take at least one episode in the beginning just to deal with the rescue of Maedhros and the crowning of Fingolfin, and the final episode (at least) would be the Battle of Sudden Flame and the duel between Fingolfin and Morgoth.
I don't know if there is a way to push back Beren/Luthien another season, but I think the 'haha, Season 4 is just Beleriand and its Realms' idea is going to get very old very quickly when we actually try to put that season together.
Maybe Alcarohtar is right, and what we need is for Season 4 to have 23 episodes rather than 13, or something like that.
I don't know if there is a way to push back Beren/Luthien another season, but I think the 'haha, Season 4 is just Beleriand and its Realms' idea is going to get very old very quickly when we actually try to put that season together.
Maybe Alcarohtar is right, and what we need is for Season 4 to have 23 episodes rather than 13, or something like that.
Alcarohtar
Active Member
I loved the fragments in the Lost Tales so if we can make it fit with the later writings we should totally use it. But if it contradicts the later writings we shouldn't do it. I haven't read the last 8 HOME books yet so I don't know if it fits in.
Tolkien's later writing on the origin of Men can be found in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth in (I think) Home X: Morgoth's Ring. While we certainly don't want to include all of the philosophy from that in the show in any explicit way, we should probably avoid contradicting it if possible, I agree.