Session 3.01 and 3.07 - Season Overview

Man, I feel like by the time I catch up with all the reading and podcasts I'll be way too late to say anything about Season 3...

I am in the camp that’s uncomfortable with squeezing 455 years into just one season to get Beren and Lúthien into Season 5. I really think it would work better to divide that into 2 seasons, with the natural break point being the appearance of mortals and Finrod befriending them. Rushing a story too quickly can damage the pacing.

I am so glad Ents will make an appearance. I love Ents.

I think part of the story of Maedhros should include that, after the second emissary is sent to the Sons of Fëanor and they essentially give up on their brother, Sauron tells Maedhros that they abandoned him (and makes it sound worse than it really was) just to make him even more miserable.

I mostly don’t have an opinion about how you get the Beleriand storyline into the pacing, but I do feel strongly that the First Battle should be clearly before the Second Battle, and Maedhros should clearly be captured before Fingolfin and the Sun and Moon come to Middle-earth. I don't think it's necessary to specify "And then 42.384 solar-year-equivalents passed..." or use any other explicit indication of date, but I don't agree with changing the order in which things happen, unless the way Tolkien wrote something was illogical or badly written, or impossible to depict visually.
 
Faelivrin said:
Man, I feel like by the time I catch up with all the reading and podcasts I'll be way too late to say anything about Season 3...

I am in the camp that’s uncomfortable with squeezing 455 years into just one season to get Beren and Lúthien into Season 5. I really think it would work better to divide that into 2 seasons, with the natural break point being the appearance of mortals and Finrod befriending them. Rushing a story too quickly can damage the pacing.

I am so glad Ents will make an appearance. I love Ents.

I think part of the story of Maedhros should include that, after the second emissary is sent to the Sons of Fëanor and they essentially give up on their brother, Sauron tells Maedhros that they abandoned him (and makes it sound worse than it really was) just to make him even more miserable.

I mostly don’t have an opinion about how you get the Beleriand storyline into the pacing, but I do feel strongly that the First Battle should be clearly before the Second Battle, and Maedhros should clearly be captured before Fingolfin and the Sun and Moon come to Middle-earth. I don't think it's necessary to specify "And then 42.384 solar-year-equivalents passed..." or use any other explicit indication of date, but I don't agree with changing the order in which things happen, unless the way Tolkien wrote something was illogical or badly written, or impossible to depict visually.
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Firstly, welcome aboard. Glad you got your account straightened out.

Secondly, I'm glad to hear that someone agrees that forcing Beren & Luthien into S05 might be a bit premature. I believe that too much happens in that period to push through in one season and still have an audience who cares about any of it.

As to the hosts decision to put the death of Denethor after the death of Fëanor, I agree that this is problematic chronologically, but I have fought that fight as much as I'm going to. I will point out that this is a result of trying to push more narrative than an arc can carry. As soon as it became clear that the culmination of the first battle is the climax of that storyline this season, while the death of Fëanor in the second battle is not the climax of that storyline, we should have moved the capture of Maedhros and the arrival of Fingolfin to the following season to maintain the timeline.

That said, my plan to fix this is to have the "First Battle" be more of a war campaign, that begins before Fëanor arrives in Middle Earth. Whether I can sell this to the hosts is another matter.
 
I think they were just worried about the 'Beleriand' storyline wrapping up too quickly. If we can plot it out for them so that Denethor's death happens earlier, but the western front with Cirdan and the retreat of the elves of Doriath into Menegroth (for instance) happens later, they might have less of an issue with that.

So, anyone who wants to fight for an alternative version should map out and episode-by-episode breakdown of the Beleriand storyline, and see if you can sell it to the Execs.
 
WORK IN PROGRESS (right now a bit of a mess)
Now, Alcarothtar has already done a great job I think. I built on that (copied a lot), and changed a few things. This is the beleriand stuff only (remember, work in progress, I've just thrown in some ideas, feel free to say whatever you think. I certainly overlooked more than one thing)

    • E3: Meanwhile, in Beleriand
      • Establish Thingol, Melian, and their court. Luthien, Daeron
      • SSNOP details, orcs being prepped for release. Sauron loses his job, is sent to find out what happened to Ungoliant.
        • Boldog is put in charge of the orc project.
      • Gothmog is put in charge of the army as operative general.
      • Círdan (the settlements, ships etc)
      • We see Eöl who has some kind of contact with Mîm.
      • First orc raids (Mablung and Beleg in battle) on northern regions
    • E4: Khazad Ai Menu!
      • Encounter with dwarves
      • alliance negotiated
      • Menegroth given to Elves
        • Mîm tossed, disgruntled
      • The Sindar go dark so Mairon can’t find them (Kind of like Nargothrond, sneaky)
      • Sauron sends out scouts (Thuringwethil, bats, wolves). Where have the elves gone?
      • Green elves led by Denethor cross the mountains and enter Ossiriand. They bring Ents (including Treebeard).
    • E5:
      • Eöl and the Dwarves of the Ered Luin
      • Sauron learns about the Green elves. He discovers that elves are seeking refuge a hidden place in Doriath.
      • The orcs multiply. Boldog is getting ready to release a lot of orcs.
    • E6:
      • The Green elves meet the Sindar.
      • Boldog brings a larger host of orcs out of Angband and initially encounters just a few Sindar, who are killed, but some escape to tell Thingol.
    • E7:
      • The orcs head south in their attack on Beleriand, and we see Thingol and Círdan prepairing defensive action. Thingol coordinates movements with the Dwarves to meet the enemy before they get to Menegroth. Círdan prepares for a siege.
      • Eöl (hides?)
      • The Havens are besieged.


E8:

§ Thingol and the defeat the attack on Menegroth and set out to help the green elves

        • Sauron finds Shelob
        • The green elves are slaughtered on Amon Ereb, Denethor dies
        • The orcs are defeated but both Thingol and the Green elves have suffered heavy losses.
        • Green Elves vow to never take a new leader
      • Melian sets up the girdle to protect Doriath from attacks in the future. Thingol prepares for hard times. Some green Elves settle in Doriath as guests of king Thingol (Guest-Elves, Saeros is one of them)
    • E9
    • Burning of ships (may take some time depending on whether we kill a twin or not)
    • Fingolfin see the smoke across the ocean
    • Gothmog watching the fires from the burning
    • Fëanor travels into Hithlum and set up a camp by the shores of lake Mithrim
    • Victory of Fëanor (Dagor-nuin-Giliath)
      • Gothmog sends his orcs down to attack the noldor
      • The orcs are slaughtered and Gothmog is humiliated
 
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I haven't included any trolls. And now that I think about it, I suggest that we wait with trolls until next season or at the earliest in the final episodes this season. Even if they aren't actually made in mockery of the Ents, who come to Beleriand quite late this season, we should at least show events in such a way that it's possible to believe that is the case. So they should appear about half a season or at a minimum three episodes after the enemy encounters the Ents to make it believable as a response.
I know, the Ents were in the War To Begin All Wars as defenders of the realms between Utumno and Cuivienen and so the Enemy has encountered them. But that was so long ago and Melkor didn't see them himself.
 
UPDATED VERSION, Beleriand storyline:
E3:

Beginning with the aftermath of the Kinslaying.

We visit Círdan, see the life of the Falathrim, their settlements, ships etc. This is necessary since we later on will see them besieged.

Establishing Thingol and Melian, and their court. Luthien has to shine from the very beginning, we have to fall in love with her at least a bit even if she's not going to do anything for ages and we will hardly see her (but we will show her reacting to Menegroth etc). Daeron has to be a star. In these times of peace, he will (well, apart from Thingol and Melian, and Luthien), be the person at court that people talk about and admire. This will put him in a position which makes him develop fantasies about himself and Luthien.

Angband: SSNOP details, orcs being prepped for release. Sauron loses his job, is sent to find out what happened to Ungoliant. Morgoth does some management by fear, letting his servants know that no one has a safe position. Boldog is put in charge of the orc project. His position is under Gothmog who is put in charge of the army as operative general. I don't think a lot of time has to be spent on Angband. Boldog's relation to Mairon is probably that he thinks Mairon is a loser and he himself a winner, but they won't have much contact at this stage.

We see Eöl who has some kind of contact with Mîm. This is to establish that Eöl has contact with dwarves of all kinds, and to show that Mîm lives in what is to become Menegroth, and to show two loners. They don't have to be friends - in fact, I'm not sure that's within their capacity.

Beleg and Mablung encounter orcs for the first time. The two elves happen to come across some sorry looking beasts wandering. They run away. Suddenly the starlit dark is disrupted by three volcanic explosions to the north. The Thangoridrim peaks are created. The time of peace is over.



E4: Khazad Ai Menu!

The Sindar encounter the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains. An alliance is negotiated; Thingol and Melian understands that the great enemy has returned and that they will need allies. They are interested in the weapons and armor the dwarves have and curious about the way they live. This leads to the suggestion that the elves should move underground. Who finds Menegroth and suggests that the Sindar should move there? (Sindar, dwarves, Eöl?).

Mîm is tossed out and he is disgruntled by this. (Do we see something of Eöl?)

Mairon: he can’t find the Sindar anymore. He suspects Melian is behind this. He sends out scouts to find the elves – and they will also look for signs of Ungoliant.

Green elves arrive in Ossiriand. They bring Ents, including Treebeard.

E5:

More of Eöl and the dwarves of the Blue Mts. Just showing that he interacts with them.

Sauron learns about the Green elves. Thuringwethil finds out that word is spread among the elves of Beleriand that there is a hidden place in Doriath where elves can find refuge.

Doriath: Interior decoration of Menegroth.

The orcs multiply. Boldog is making soldiers of them, and is getting ready to release a huge army. Gothmog is onto him and threatens him – he must not fail.

Of the Noldor: There is tension between the fingolfinians and the feanorians - but Maedhros and Fingon are friends. We understand that not much time has passed since the Kinslaying.


E6:

The Green elves meet the Sindar.

Boldog brings a larger host of orcs out of Angband and initially encounters just a few Sindar, who are killed, but some escape to tell Thingol.


E7:


The orcs head south in their attack on Beleriand, and we see Thingol and Círdan prepairing defensive action. Thingol coordinates movements with the Dwarves to meet the enemy before they get to Menegroth. Círdan prepares for a siege.

Eöl (hides?)

The Havens are besieged.


The curse of Mandos. Finarfin turns back. Fëanor leaves with the ships.


E8:

While Melian sets up the girdle (which could take some time, like even more than one episode?), Thingol and the dwarves defeat the attack on Menegroth and set out to help the green elves.
Sauron finds Shelob. He senses the power of Melian and her girdle close by. ('Something is happening here')

The green elves are slaughtered on Amon Ereb, Denethor dies

The orcs are defeated but both Thingol and the Green elves have suffered heavy losses. Beleg or Mablung wounded?

Green Elves vow to never take a new leader. Thingol prepares for hard times. Some green Elves settle in Doriath as guests of king Thingol (Guest-Elves, Saeros is one of them). (Maybe the Girdle is finished after this?)


Helcaraxë.


E9:

Burning of ships (may take some time depending on whether we kill a twin or not)

Fingolfin sees the smoke across the ocean.

Gothmog is watching the fires from the burning. Fëanor travels into Hithlum and sets up a camp by the shores of lake Mithrim.

Victory of Fëanor (Dagor-nuin-Giliath): Gothmog sends his orcs down to attack the noldor. The orcs are slaughtered and Gothmog is humiliated.


Helcaraxë continued.
 
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I'm thinking he gets killed in E10. Let's give him a moment of success in Middle-earth. ;) It's mostly depending on how much focus will be put on the burning of the ships. I think that if one of the twins dies in the burning, it can't be rushed over too quickly. And I think that if we kill Fëanor at this time, it could be a bit too much for one episode. (This might be the episode where we put some of the Sun&Moon stuff, perhaps?)
 
I guess yes. We can show him as someone in charge of the building of Menegroth? That would place him in episode 5, and perhaps he's seen even earlier? Could he also know Eöl, or does Eöl have contact mostly or only with the Belegost dwarves?
 
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Ok so I changed the writing about the Girdle, suggesting that Melian begins working on it when the orcs attack and finishing after the death of Denethor and the arrival of the green elf refugees in Menegroth. What do you think? I know the execs have discussed having it happen later on but maybe that isn't a locked decision.
 
Another thing is that the execs have been talking about 'Sauron's victory in the south' and I guess have an idea about the season outline that I have missed/ignored. Does someone have any info on that?
 
The third thing is of course that I've moved Denethor's death from e11 to way earlier. Are people good with this? Should we try to convince the execs that this is the best choice? Or do we look for a middle ground? Or have they already changed their minds and I've missed it?
 
They have not changed their minds about the death of Denethor occurring late in the Season. They will fight you on moving it up. Still, fight the good fight ;)

Sauron's victory in the south is meant to be in counterpoint to Gothmog losing to the Noldor in the north. The Sindar are pushed back to defensive positions as they are not prepared to fight and army of orcs. The Noldor under Feanor, however, push the orcs back. Timing will matter.
 
MithLuin said:
Timing will matter.
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Yes, because if we end the "First Battle" as in the book, Thingol squeezes out a narrow victory over the orcs who slaughtered the Green Elves. Then the retreating army of orcs is bushwacked by dwarves.

If we are maintaining the "Sauron has a successful campaign while Gothmog does not" routine, that means that the Fëanorians have to arrive and win their beachhead before the southern campaign ends, and so Sauron is pulled to the northern front before his victory is complete.
 
Well I can see a storyline where the First Battle is considered a loss by both sides, and Boldog leads the enemy side and is afterwards replaced by Sauron who then manages to push dwarves and Sindar back and intensify the siege on the Falathrim (and Fëanor fights Gothmog at approximately the same time).
 
This makes a more interesting arc for Sauron I think, where he's kicked sideways down in the beginning of the season and triumphs at the end (sort of).
 
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